try this -

http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm

how do we know if God exists?

is it possible to accept the existence of God as knowledge or is it simply a belief?

Games notwithstanding, I think most of us dare not nto believe in God. Its rather unnerving to think that there is no one 'up there' in charge and keeping an eye on all of us. In my opinion, God is certainly a belief, a comfort zone.

School Anglo-chinese (independent)

God is not a comfort zone, people overuse that phrase

dont get so uppity elvis

It is purely personal choice that will determine whether or not there is a God - or more than one God.
In every religion and culture you will hear different views about a superior being; but it is completely acceptable to know that a God exists, as many people will argue that there is proof that comes with each religion.
You pose a very difficult question, and I shall have to further think about this...

I agree, fellow IBer. If it is not a personal choice, then there is no point. But if you can prove there is a God or gods, then the point is also lost. One cannot prove nor disprove God. It is a belief, and to believe you must have the belief. I'm not sure that's what I mean to say, but I don't know how else to word it. The debate could continue forever as to what is real and what is reality, and whether something exists or not, just because we see it. mirages, for example? so how do we know that God is not just a mirage for our spirit?

School Palmer High School, Alaska

so the question reads "do i believe in god?" and the answer i give is no. i have found that through study of the IB philosophy course that the proofs for the existence of god are flawed. the ontological arument is the only a priori argument, that which is not experientially based, and it is all word play. god appears to be a falsehood and an excuse to make up for human lack of understanding and desire to see patterns. I cannot explain where the universe came from. I can only try and understand from where modern physics can explain, which is 10^-43 seconds after the big bang, which doesnt include a reason for existence. The definition of what God could be seems a little weird though. it seems stupid to see this god being as having all the omni- characteristics. I mean, why would he be all-loving and omni-potent? it's just ridiculous. the label defining god seems a bit ill-defined. I dont think that if i pray to god that he will hear my plea and make amends in my life. the idea of someone upstairs controlling and caring about billions of people is nothing short of deeply self-centred. i dont believe in this definition of god. I might believe in some great catalyst that caused the universe to come into existence but not some higher power watching over us.

what evidence could we ever discover to prove or disprove the existence of God?

There is no possibility of ever having evidence of god. Some argue that all the evidence is around us in this world He has created. However, there is no argument to say this is actually God's work. Just because there may be apparent patterns to our human eyes does not mean a)that these patterns actually exist or b)that this is any proof that god was the purveyor of this "intelligent design". We cannot prove God anymore than we can prove the reason why the universe sprang into existence. It is mere speculation. If the idea of God appeases humanity's desire to know and understand everything then why not have faith. There can be no proof, so all attempts to prove God's existence are either word play or unjustifiable. However, one can use common sense and reasoning. Why would a higher being look out for individuals? God seems a way for people to find their place in the world and pretend that someone cares about them. Not buying it. Have you ever noticed how things like stigmata and miracles always happen to those already within the faith? The idea of God is quite nice, but as regards an interfering god, that denies all logic. Miracles cannot happen. They 'break the causal chain' if you will.

tell tht to God when ur in HELL!

Sorry still can't buy your argument! Well first of all I don't believe in God and neither do I feel like miracles happen to people who believe in a higher power. On the contrary most of my religious friends have a lot of misfortunes! Although this is irrelevant to my discussion! Science has proof to back it up. Religion has speculation to back it up. Which sounds more reliable proof or speculation? I belief it is proof. Understandably we want to find answers to questions which seem unanswerable. Therefore beleiving in God is an form of arrogance. Why can't people accept that some questions can not be answered! Why can't people accept the mysteries of life. Why do religious people hang on to something so vague and think that is the answer to everything?

Religion is a drug and you can't deny that you are addicted!!!

i'm not religious either but could you explain what the 'proof' is that God does not exist?

If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then nothing can have a creator, so why should life or the universe have one?

In addition, if everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void


Sorry still can't buy your argument! Well first of all I don't believe in God and neither do I feel like miracles happen to people who believe in a higher power. On the contrary most of my religious friends have a lot of misfortunes! Although this is irrelevant to my discussion! Science has proof to back it up. Religion has speculation to back it up. Which sounds more reliable proof or speculation? I belief it is proof. Understandably we want to find answers to questions which seem unanswerable. Therefore beleiving in God is an form of arrogance. Why can't people accept that some questions can not be answered! Why can't people accept the mysteries of life. Why do religious people hang on to something so vague and think that is the answer to everything?

Religion is a drug and you can't deny that you are addicted!!!

I am curious what proof you have that disproves the existence of God. But then again, there is no proof that there is a God.

Also you say that believing in god is "an form of arrogance" I think you mean to use the word ignorance, because faith is not believing you are better than everyone else. You can't argue that someone is ignorant believing in God. If, in the future, God proves to exist, it is YOU who is ignorant.

My personal opinion is that Adam and Eve is crap. I think that "God created the heaven and the earth in 6 days and reseted on the 7th" is pretty unlikely. I do not think that Jesus walked on water or turned water into wine.

I do believe in the Big Bang, but I believe in intelligent design. Essentially, the Architect from the Matrix. One looking in from the outside who designed it all from the start.

I have no proof that says that I am right or wrong. I do not claim that I am right. It is, reiterating, A BELIEF!!

I see incredible coincidences which I do not see as the product of mere chance. Modern physics cannot descibe it. I take the next best thing.

You ask why we can't just accept that there are things in the universe we will never know? If we did that from the beginning of time, where would we be? Think about it. What if Einstein and Newton and Galileo had no motivation and chose to accept the idea that the earth is the center of the universe and everything goes around us? Would you be satisfied knowing you could, when in a boat, suddenly fall of the edge of the world?

It is human nature, I believe, to be curious about our surrondings.

School Aspen High School

I always wonder why do people waste time in finding out whether god exists or not. I have never seen a asingle benefit of doing that. If God does exist, how do you know that he is the one who holds the supreme power. why do we need God to control our life. We are GOd and we can do whatever we can. Cant you see by yourself. all the inventions we have seen would be a God's miracles few centuries ago. Its in you. Just find it.

School Atlantic College

I actually believe in you in a sense. I think that God lives within us. When you ask why anyone would waste their time trying to figure out the existance of God, I ask you, If that question were answered, wouldn't that provide a pathway toward the ultimate goal of figuring out the meaning of life? I think it is possibly the most important question of all time. That is why you would study it.

School Aspen High School

**** EDIT TO PREVIOUS POST ****

I do not believe in you... I agree with you... first line.

**** EDIT TO PREVIOUS POST ****

School Aspen High School

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/rootofevil.html

richard dawkins says religion is the root of all evil because...

in a world without God or religion good people would generally do good things and bad people would do bad things.

however in a world with religion you have the added situation of good people doing evil things in the name of religion

what do you think?

now you tell me, who assured you that, if you find the so called GOD, you will be knowing the purpose of life. there is only one purpose of life. do whatever your heart says. If you want to do this, just do it. dont be afraid or embarrased of doing it. because anyone around you is just like you . purpose of life is just an excuse to develop your personality . people always ask this question when they dont understand what todo . when everything fais intheir life. so my freind, be pratical and do what your heart says. if you lose 1 million $, dont worry you will find your purpose of life.

First in response to sedaris:

I think that there are brances of religion that don't make any sense. Fundamentalism, in my opinion, is flawed. Religion, for me, is a general guideline at a good way to live life. Essentially, be kind to others is a basic premise of many religions. Many fundamentalists find some small detail and try to exploit it so it is advantageous for them. As far as good people and bad people go, I believe that everyone has potential. Everyone has potential to be good and potential to be bad. Religion is an attempt to guide one to the good side.

Response to Tenzin Jamyang:

You say that the sole purpose in life is to do whatever you want. Why would you possibly want to write an extended essay? Why wouldn't you just go rob a bank and get tons of money and buy nice cars and sit around and watch tv all day? Why would you ever work when you could just rob a store? I don't think that happiness is the meaning of life because temporary indulgences are just that... temporary. I think that the meaning of life is to work toward the betterment of humanity as a whole, not just individual pleasures.

School Aspen High School

hey htats what i am saying. my heart say. do what ever you want. and i dont want to rob a bank. why should i be in trouble. because i am not a perosn who wants to fave troubles. and i want taht. there are people who wants to rob bank , and ready to face consequences, thats what they want. not all of us have the same wants dude. just think about it. i do the thing i want even though it is eembarrasing for some person. i am being honest. thats it peace

See here's the thing though. If you always just do what you want, why would you ever want to work really hard? If everyone just wanted to do whatever they wanted, very little would be accomplished because everyone would work toward personal benefit. There would be very litte helping humanity as a whole. If everyone just did what they wanted, at some point, the majority of people would need to be farmers and hunters or they would die from starvation. I understand your point that not everyone has the same desires in life, but if all you do is think about yourself, I find that incredibly selfish.

School Aspen High School

hey dude
can you prove me that selfish is bad thing. who told you that selfish is a bad thing. did you hear it from your parents or from your teachers. have you ever examined whether being selfish is good or bad. i am not saying that putting this word selfish is not what i want to hear with the connotation you are bearing in your mind. can you first define me what selfishness is.
and ya about. why do i work so hard. i want to make my parents happy, thats why want to study hard. i want them happy. thats why i am studying hard. cant you see. if you see every action you do, there is always a self benifit in it. just look at every steps you have taken. if you cant find any, give me an example youhavent. and i will prove it to you, till then peace. dude

Yes I believe in God, or at least in something that is greater than us. I do not believe that his existence can be proved in a scientific manner; for me it is through personal experience that has led me to believe.

I also think that no matter what you believe we should all respect each other's beliefs, at the end of the day we are all human and deserve each other's respect.

xx

School Exeter College

To Tenzin:

Two questions for you...

1) What would the world look like today if everyone cared solely about themselves?

2) How does that compare with a world where everyone constantly thought about what they could do to help their fellow man?

--------

To Yvonne:

I agree with you.

School Aspen High School

i feel that there is something out there, although i do not feel that this has the ultimate power over our lives. the only people that have that power are ourselves. it is up to us what we do when we get up, up to us how we spend our day, wether we take peoples advice or just let it go in one ear and out of the other.
but i ask you all this (believers and non-believers)
if there is something out there that has the ultimate power over us why do so many people die every year from disease and poverty?
some people will answer that it is because he can not control all - well then you have already contradicted yourself, i thought he had ultimate power!
others will say that he feels we need to learn lessons and that we deserve what we get - as an answer to that how come it is always the innocent people that end up getting hurt and why not the people who actually deserve it?
but i would love to hear what people REALLY feel, not just what they get at church or even what their parents, friends or teachers tell them, but what they really feel, inside, as this is where it counts.

That website was fun! I took two direct hits and never bit the bullet, and it really made me think. I still think that God is a matter of belief, but it made me look more closely at my own beliefs and be more consistent. I recommend it to everyone!

ok, so I sent that last post before I wanted to. Anyway, the website I'm talking about is the one that mr flynn posted originally.
To "jus a lil' bit confuddled" I would have to agree that we should consider how we actually feel about a subject, and not just what we are told, whether you are religious or not. However, that is the basis for religion, in a sense. How we feel on a subject is our beliefs. My own beliefs are based partially on external evidence and internal "gut feelings" if you will. However, I do not claim that my beliefs are true, and they are always changing. The core of my beliefs and morals stays the same, but the details change.
I think that if we were all more open to ideas (and I am not claiming perfection on that), then we could come much closer to the Truth. Truth, however, is just as elusive as the question of God's existence.

Yes I believe in God.

School Stonewall Jackson High School

I have to say that I believe in God. I cannot say however that my belief in God's existence is certain and therefore, I cannot say that God exists. I do not know this. I believe it. Einstein said the more he discovered, the more he believed in a higher power. The same can be said for many great philosophers and scientists. The more we know, the harder it is to believe that we are a cosmic coincidence, for example: if the earth was one inch in either direction of its current orbital location, humans would cease to exist (too hot or too cold). One inch. I'm not sure how people cannot believe in a higher power, but I understand their scepticism as ironically, it is science that pushes us to question our beliefs.

School STS Calgary, Canada

Believing in God IS a matter of faith, the most it is this way in the beginning. By saying that I'd like to point out that it is rather useless, thus, to blame anyone for believing in God based on faith.

God can be somewhat of a security insurance for some people but I'd quoestion the way they see God. There are those who think nothing bad will never happen to them if they just believe in God. Then there are those who know that faith was never promised to cause easy life, but "full" life. The former usually give up their faith easily, the latter believe that no matter how much they're being kicked around, it is a part of God's plan. And the thing is, if they really are true believers, then that also is the truth.

Uh... needless to say that I do believe in God. *grin*

I do believe in God, but I think (however much I love philosophy and think it is definetely one of the more important subjects to study) that it places too much power in the hands of philosophical reasoning to think that one can debate over the existence of God in any way. I don't mean to say that discussion is not important - it is! But debate in which arguments, evidence, reasoning is offered I don't think will ever in itself change anyone's mind. If something said in an attempt at this debate does inadvertently cause someone to suddenly start or stop believing, then I would say it is not because of the logic itself but rather the general effect of what was said.

There is great meaningfulness in having faith in a God that can not be seen with the eyes or heard with the ears and where there are lots of reasons not to believe.

School VRA - Toronto, Canada

"to be is to be percieved"
if God is not there, when we leave a room, What/Who/Whom perceives the objects in it to keep them there?

School Lamar High School

Because of the severe impossibility that we, and our universe, could have existed without an omnicient hand guiding the process, I know that God exists, whatever name He goes by to everyone else. For you who believe that the Big Bang was that simple in justifying our existence, you really must do more research into the near impossibility of the event creating us.

Two things Ali:
1. Apparently you seem to keep the objects there, since you dwell on them. You percieve their existence continually due to personal memory. Or maybe, for the same reason, the objects flash into existence because you recall them?
2. If your quote was true, then things should have been vanishing left and right when Helen Keller was born.

I am not saying God doesn't exist.

What most people overlook is the mind-body problem- how does the mind relate to the brain? Materialists argue that consciousness and subjective experiences are just the atoms flying around; dualists argue that this is impossible. One estimate I saw said that .25 of modern metaphysicians are dualists, .25 agnostic, and .5 materialist.

It's relevant to this debate because if consciousness exists outside the material world it would be strong evidence for God. I've won the argument for dualism against my TOK teacher and a few athiests I know, but alhtough they conceded the point they were not convinced.

This page

http://www.consciousentities.com/chalmers.htm)

reviews the work of David Chalmer from the viewpoint of a dualist and a materialist. Mainly, it outlines the problem and the main five arguments Chalmers presents.

Aside from metaphysics, the universe is imaginably favored towards intelligent life. Unless there are an infinite number of universes, sopmething that may not be possible, the chances of this happening by accident are 1 in a trillian. Meaning the chances of intelligent design are very high.

Oh, and here is the cosmological argument, a similar but stronger a priori argument for God:

http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html

School PV

I would have to say that I believe in God, however, the only "proof" that I have of his (or her) existence is that there are things that I cannot possibly understand on this Earth (such as how the complexity of the human body is created in such perfect synch that we are able to function ) that lead me to believe in a higher power. I also find that I believe partially because it gives more meaning to my life. To me, it seems like such a waste to be on Earth without any purpose or reason created by someone with a definite plan. I will admit that, although I never make plans, I like it when someone makes them for me. In a way, I view God as a safety net; someone that I can "rely" on with a plan since I honestly have no idea how my life is going to turn out. Sadly, I also use God as en excuse, when something good or really terrible happens in my life. To put it all in one sentence, There is no proof in the existence of God (in my opinion) but I belive in him because I was raised into my faith and to me, life would be completely pointless without hope and faith in something beyond this life.

School Trinity High School

David, exactly. Metaphysically, God can be proven, and reality-wise He must exist in order for us to exist, because our existence is supposed to be nigh impossible.

i agree with the ontological argument of humans creating an understanding for themselves to better their own realisation of what is actual reality and what is not. Essentially, everything we know is based on the past, like the amalgamation of historical events and scientific information, however this 'past' knowledge was based on the developmental process to which it becomes knowledge or fact. Basically what i am trying to say is that humans have attempted to creat an understanding of the world, and what a better way at understanding this than creating something un-understandable, God. Essentially establishing a sense of balance, if one cant understand it, rely upon a God to make sense of it. I hope this makes some kind of sense...

Earlier in this discussion, the question was posed of why we are arguing this because we should realize that "no good has ever come from such debate"

My own behaviour, following self-interested motives, denies that statement. Why would I trouble myself to find this website, carefully read through the extensive dialogue of these TOKers, and ponder the issue for myself if "no good" came from it. I do what I want (ie. what makes me feel good, a reason that is necessarily tacked on to every action or thought) requires there to be benefits in my actions, self-benefits. Forcing yourself to think and enticing others is "no good"? Please expound.

School Dekalb

It is within the capacity of human existance to place faith in an intangible concept such as a God. The reason is simply the fact that through sheer will, humanity can create the image of a being who cannot be percieved through normal senses, and certainly not directly.

Placing faith within this higher being, we begin to conceptualize higher powers that answer humanities toughest questions- who are we, and what is our purpose in the universe. (However, these "questions" will be different based on what individual's believe is "important")

I do not believe it is possible to "know"-that is,conciously, that a God exists, rather the human species has always allowed hope to superceed logic when it dawns upon such topics as a God. I believe the reason may stem from the simply idea that, in their opinion, hope superceeds logic, then you cannot logically disprove a God based on hope. However, if logic one day concretely proves, or disproves an ideal, such as God, theologins will be in an interesting situation, as their foundation for belief and perception will have been momentarily disrupted, until they find the new method to place 'trust' in a God.

I believe it is possible only to accept the existence of God as a belief, because knowledge implies logical deduction, and God cannot be reached through logic; the system of "faith" is not based on logic either, and therefore it is imperative to understand, I think, that "faith" implies an emotional feeling that overshadows logically insight, especially with a concept that is difficult to grasp without some sort of faith attatched to it.

School Desert Mountain High School

I will have to say that without God, we would never have been able to traverse the paths of chaos, the alternate possibilities that are not us. Perhaps because we are already here we care not to see that our existence should have been a fluke. Except that flukes do not happen in nature. As for God being fabricated as the yang to the yin of the understandable, perhaps you may be right, but perhaps at this point the ripples of the origins of monotheism that makes up God or Allah have created Him to be more than an alternative to true understanding? To me, he is understanding itself, the seer of total truth beyond human perception and bias. As this, He is the judge whose judgements I try to understand and learn the concepts behind, so I may be able to understand why things are. Yet He is more that that to me. To fully explain Him would be impossible in this time-bound reality and life.

Why do we (apart from Buddhists) always look outwards for the existence of God? We now know - or are able to hypothesize about - the relationship between thoughts, feelings, and desires, and the underlying neurological structures that exist in our brain and nervous system that cause these experiences. Most religions profess the experience of God as being able to tap into some sort of universal conciousness. Could God, therefore, not be a universal and ancient shared part of our brain that lets us tap into a universal conciousness?

Humans love to anthropomorphize everything, and, not surprisingly, have done the same thing with religion. We are now, however, at a stage where we are aware of both the fallacies of anthropomorphizing, and of attributing the compexities of nature to a "higher cause or being" that exists outside of our own awareness (namely due to science). Should we, therefore, start looking inward instead of outward when trying to identify what God is?

p.s. My father taught me a valuable lesson when I was young. Never assume anything becuase you make an ASS out of U and ME. I am assuming alot with the above statement and am therefore open to the fact that my views may be considered ASine by others!

Just started teaching TOK and am loving it!

School Sekola Bina Nusantara, Jakarta Indonesia

I am not a religious person, at all.... i have never gone to a church and i my entire family is not very religious. I raise this question often at the dinner table, and now is my chance to get some answers to my questions. I believe that all your beliefs and all your cultures beliefs are in your head. No one can prove that there is a god or gods and thereofore how can choose to live our lives revolving and relying on the "man above" to provide us with answers and change our life styles according to our beliefs. Sure you can believe in whatever you want, untill the day when "the man above" responds to our questions or prayers in a way in which everyone can experience his actions, then we can start proving that there is a god. I do myself wish for certain things, and do believe that there can be someone listening to me, but there is no evidence or proof that we can believe in a thing that no man has ever seen with proof. Everyone has the right to believe in everything, but inorder to be sure that he or she or it is real there must be tangable or visual proof by a group of people.

School ISK

Hiwot: believing in god, for some of us, is a choice that was made for u when you were born. Believing in God gives some of us a sense of security, but doesn't work for everyone. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean that it's non-existant.


Azeb: To me Religion is a way to get your mind off the idea of death and what the world is really like. Religion is the belief in something that may not be true, you could believe in a tree or even a bird. How can each religion belive in their own god/s without conflicting with other religions, some religions belive in more than one god while others belive in only one. How is it that one religoin can belive that only they go to heaven and everyone goes to hell. ?

School ISK

I do beleive in God even though sometimes I question His existence. Science can't give us all the answers to how the earth was created and why are we what we are. God is the answer because it is all written in the scriptures and in the Bible. It explains how the world was created and how we were created. Even if it isn't very credible,it gives answers. Many people say that God is a comfort zone, but i think it's also to give a meaning to life. What's the point of life if you're going to die one day or the other. God makes us beleive that there's a better life after death. This can give strength to carry on living.

I believe in god because i dont know all the secrets of the universe, so where else can i look to as to why we are here? the infinite vastness of the universe cannot be a result coincidental events, there must be someone behind it all. god is a belief because we need someone to look to for all life's mysteries

School international school of kenya

Personally I find it very hard to believe in God. There is no proof and with out it, it is just a theory. God is something most people fear if they don't believe in him, they hide behind God as if to say that his morals are their morals as well. The problem with this is that they are not free to think about anything else or any other possibilities. This is almost true for every religion. As well believing in your God means that you can't believe in anything else therefore rejecting other cultures instead of embracing them.

I think most Christians cannot even agree on the rules of what God actually is. But let's play this logically. If God was present at the beginning of the universe, and created the Big Bang, and we are all a part of his calculations, the bible being written by man as a philosophical guide to existence and ethical guide to living (most ancient countries liked to say their laws were god-given, as to enforce the laws mentally to it's population), and Jesus was just a nice man who died for his beliefs (if he believed he died for our sins, then, technically, he did die for our sins), then it is possible for him to exist. But there is no way to prove or disprove God. The Pastafarians had this one down pretty well. They used Darwinism to prove their religion. And if that were the case, it is very possible for Christians to prove theirs. Only they'd need to be realistic in their beliefs.

I do belive in god; after all the world and the universe had to created by something. There is no true proof that god exists, other than my faith as a beliver. However, there is proof that Jesus did actually exist, and he was a beliver, god probably does exist.
Also there are several religions that center on an ultimate, omnipotent being that created the world and is present in the everyday lives of the belivers of those faiths. Although these religions use different languages and names, the simmilarities between them seem to point towards the existence of God.

School dougherty high

Do i believe in god? Yes. If there was no god then who else created earth, space, the moon, the stars ect.? Man can not make nor create these things. So who else would have created these things besides someone who has the power to breathe life into a body.? Without god alot of things that man cannot create would not be here. Believing in him can be a comfort zone for others but for me its the way i live my life everyday. I believe in him because he was a man that was known to do the impossible and today on earth we are surround by so many impossible things. So why not believe in god?

School Dougherty Comprehensive High School