So, I tried talking to the wife tonight about the marriage. She says I'm badgering her when I talk to her.
She doesn't like it that I have complained about sexual things she said to other guys over the years, how she completed rejected me sexually, and that we never do anything together.
She normally doesn't respond at all when I try to discuss things.
But, tonight she said that I say horrible things to her.

So, anytime I try to talk about issues that are important to me, I am saying horrible things.
It appears that there is no hope of communication at all.

Oh, and she didn't like it that I brought up the times that she said my needs were petty and that I was pathetic because I wanted us to do more stuff together.

She called me a cheater. Which, I again apologized for.
I also brought up the fact that I told her for years the stuff that her friend said to me sexually and said about my wife behind her back. I told her that she knew that her friend followed me into a room and sexually attacked me. Yet, she still hung around this woman. She kept bringing her to our house.
My wife said it wasn't her fault. It was all on me.
The fact is, as far as an affair goes, very little happened. I know it was bad anyway and I apologized many times for this.
Yet, I really tried to prevent it from happening.
Plus, the fact that I hadn't seen a naked woman in years or even was told "I love you" in years didn't help matters.

Bash away at me if you want.

No bashing from me BTAP. You've sounded reasonable to me. Listen, it just sounds like everybody on here. You may just be prolonging your misery. From everyone on here says, they never change. I will tell you after my ex narc left I was devastated. It wasn't love though. It was all that I had put into it. We can't truly have reciprocal love with monsters like that. It's an illusion in our own minds. We are both in an illusion. We think that we think the world of the narc, and the narc thinks the world of themselves. It never gets better with them. I promise you, it does get better on the other side. Hang in there.

Beaten: I'm telling you, you need to drop the sex stuff. Healthy women want romance, to feel loved and cherished and to be talked to first etc. and feel cherished. Men just want to get it on, and get off. That's a major difference, when it comes to sex. Men also need to feel respected and honored though too. That is vitally important. A wise healthy woman knows that too. I tried all that too. My wife was damaged, as your probably is. You are at a place where bringing it up, and her rejecting you further is a negative narc supply to her. Give it up. You have to look at the larger picture here, as do I. Yes, you screwed up. You are forgiven, just not by her, but there is more going on there. You need to forgive yourself too, and move on emotionally,and spiritually to what is next required in your relationship. You need to do what you believe God is telling you to do. Even if it looks painful ahead, it will work out for good. I also have to remember that too right now.

You said women want to be loved and cherished. I treated my wife like a queen. She even said so publicly. But, I got nothing in return. But, I guess that's how it goes with a narc.

I know, you are trying everything you can to make things right in the relationship. Sex is very important to men in marriage. I was kind of speaking directly about that issue, because I've felt everything you are going through too, but the lack of a physical relationship was just a symptom of a larger problem within the marriage. (from her unresolved childhood issues). Women do want to be loved and cherished. We are supposed to honor our wives, but women are 'also' to love, honor and cherish and 'respect' their husbands too (there's a better chance of that when they are more emotionally healthy) It's funny that in the Bible, men are told to 'love' their wives, and women are told to 'respect' their husbands. It's what each most need, and what is most hard for each to give.

So true Awakened! Well put...***

***(I will tell you after my ex narc left I was devastated. It wasn't love though. It was all that I had put into it. We can't truly have reciprocal love with monsters like that. It's an illusion in our own minds. We are both in an illusion. We think that we think the world of the narc, and the narc thinks the world of themselves. It never gets better with them. I promise you, it does get better on the other side. Hang in there.)***

Both them and us were living an illusion. It was about walking away from a situation where we gave it all. I think the fact that it was so hard to see the relationship finally dissolve legitimizes how we truly devoted ourselves to the marriage/relationship.

The more I pray for her the more hostile she becomes.
I don't even know if she realizes that she is such an angry person.

It is a spiritual battle. I just got a text, (she took our best vacuum cleaner when she moved out of course) , and I had my son give it to me, sayin I just needed to borrow it, and said I'd bring it back the next day. She sends an angry text saying, don't ever put him in the middle again. I want my vacuum back now, right now. Theoretically, it's half mine, but she has lost her mind, evil has taken over. I wrote her back and said 'Hey it's good I picked it up, it was so clogged it was about to burn out, and then you would have to buy another one. You are very fortunate.' ( It really is totally clogged up, and we've been through this before, and she never appreciated all the things I took care of for her) I realize I'm responding to a narc, and common sense or manners no longer apply. (Of course they never did) Still hard to get a grip on what has happened to her.

Is she imploding at an alarming rate?

I don't know exactly. She has a new narc supply and her anger is just out there, more and more. I am thinking, what have I done to her? Do you understand? Logic doesn't apply. Trying to love her doesn't matter. What you do doesn't matter. I've got to try to explain to my son what is going on. I'm not sure how to handle that, just yet. I am praying about everything. I know the relationship is over. I cannot tolerate what is going on any more. I have done everything I know to do and it has cost me everything, and it's still not enough. Never thought I'd be here.

Beaten, I think you just need to accept that this is the way she is and will always be. Then, you need to decide if this is the way you want to live out the rest of your life. Talking to someone like your wife will do no good. These Pds are intractable. They do not go away.
I must agree with your wife re the affair. She had absolutely no duty to prevent it. That was your job.

I know my attitudes are not appreciated much in this area but I am going to throw out there how I feel anyway. I realize few will agree. This is not a marriage it is a torture chamber. From what I gather from Beatens descriptions my thoughts about this mans "affair" are blown way out of porportion. This was not an affair it was a simple roll in the hay with a horney woman brought into the marriage by the PDI wife for a very apparent reason. An affair is a ongoing process, a roll in the hay is what it is. Why all the guilt about this. The crazy PDI wife obviously facilitated the situation intentionally with malice and calculation by bringing this woman into the marriage to guilt trip this guy to the bone. To me the screwed up part about this scenario is the fact that the PDI wifes evil plan is working. She throws this "affair" in his face at each and every turn and HE APOLOGIZES. What a witch. The crazy PDI STILL brings this affair woman around Beaten. This man has been beaten down to a emasculated blubbering pulp by an evil malicious person. If the woman who was willing to have sex the one time with Beaten wanted an affair after his 10 years of a sexless marriage I would not blame him one single bit for packing his bags and moving to a place to have a romantic relationship with her or another woman until the rooster crowed. The BEST thing that happened with me is my willingness to "permit" myself to give and recieve love from a "normal" woman as soon as I felt I was ready. That took me about six months. For me the biggest hurdle was forgiving "myself" for involving myself with someone so messed up. As far as the PDI is concerned she has no excuse, she is screwed for life. And thats on her. I have no need for forgivness where she is concerned. The less I think of "her problems" the better I feel. The best remedy for me is living well and leaving her crappy self in the dust of the past. All and all, things are working out pretty well.

Batting 1000 birdboy.

Gotta agree with BB here, a man is a man, and needs affection too. More so if he's in a dire situation with the person who's supposed to give him that affection. I also believe it was a setup by the narc, otherwise she would not have contact with her afterwards anymore. To me this just proves the way narcs work : deviously planning the next attack, or in this case lifelong series of complaints about the same issue, to guarantee future supply. Beaten : for what it is worth, I think you should stop apologizing to this person for your roll in the hay. You are putting yourself down and she knows it, heck she planned and caused it! What you did was only human, and you already paid the price for it, your debt has been repaid.
Take a look here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rodbvny2TBs
This guy's right, we just did not know it. "Apologizing to a woman is like giving her a loaded gun". Stop feeding her, and putting yourself at risk. Start refusing to apologize, it's a done deal, history, you have paid, and that's it. She will of course go crazy, but as long as you stay cool and do not let your opinion be budged by her craziness, she will start to see the first cracks in the castle that she has built on you. Be steadfast, do not give in, no matter what may come, and her foundations will come crumbling down.

BB you said this: I know my attitudes are not appreciated.

So not true man give yourself some credit you have a firm straight forward approach. No way are you deceitful in your feelings. That really needed to be said. If we don't agree we will say so but your thoughts are important your a survivor as am I. I care about these guys and so do you. There I'm done chewing your A S S lol

PEACE!!!!

4AM heading north be safe

Have a good trip Mark. You earned it!

Beaten-it ain't gonna turn around my friend..time to **** on the fire, call in the dogs and GTFO

It's 4:23 been up since 4:00 and here I am reading post's lol I'll be checking on you guys later thanks BB

i think its past time for you to see a divorce attorney. i hate to say this but its my honest opinion.

more than likely she already has a plan to do do it herself.just waiting for the right time.

I agree with mark here. She has probably already checked out, just waiting for you to do the dirty work.

I'll give you guys an update and some observations.

First off, I would deliberately leave my browser open on my computer on some NPD/HPD websites. My wife admitted to me that she was snooping in my stuff. Later, she made a remark that I was telling people that she was crazy. I left my browser open because I knew she would snoop. I also wanted to bring her condition into her awareness without telling her directly.

So, in the last couple of months my wife has quit drinking entirely. She has cut back on her spending. She is spending much better quality time with the family.

As for me, I was trained to live a life of sacrifice growing up with my needs being non-existent.
So, when I need something now I get it. If I feel the need to say something, I say it. I have fully informed my wife of how I haven't liked her behavior over the years. Of course she hates this. I offer no apologies.
I no longer try to please her. I will still do things for her, but it comes from a different place. It comes from my love for, not for a desire to please her or to win approval.
She no longer hangs out with her bad influence friends.
Over the last few weeks my wife has done the unheard of. She has actually thanked me for some things, and apologized for some things. In my mind, this is huge.

Other things I have done for myself...
I still work out regularly. I did take the week off last week from working out because I felt my body needed a break.
I have basically quit reading.
For years, I never took breaks or lunches at work. Now, if I need to do so, I take a break.
I eat bigger meals to keep myself nourished.
I try to sleep a minimum of 7 hours of sleep after a lifetime of sleep deprivation.

Now for some observations. Thinking back over my relationship, a bpd woman wants to be dominated by a man. If a man cannot dominate her, she will find a way to dominate him.
Men are human. They need love, affection and nourishment (at least I do).
When I met my wife I knew she was a handful. I felt that I really was more of a man than other guys and could do it. lol
When a guy works and battles everyday, he needs a place of rest when he comes home. A place to recharge his batteries. So, it is crucial to tell a narc "no" with her constant demands and needs. Just so you can get some rest and sustain your strength.
A narc woman needs to feel safe and secure all of the time.
She needs (internally) to be kept in line.
You need to sidestep her drama.

My wife and I cooked breakfast together today. She panicked over simple stuff a couple of times. I had to take charge and say, "it will be okay." And it was. They need that.

We will see how things keep going.

Reminds me of chess. Not bad, not good. She is in check... for now.

She will remain in check. What I didn't realize was that I had a whole slew of codependency issues from my youth. This allowed her the upper hand.

I am, and have been, working through these issues.
My gut is telling me that I am getting things under control. I will trust my gut on this. I have been following it for the last couple of years now. I went minimal contact with her in my marriage for about a year. People warned me that it would destroy the marriage. For better or worse, she is still here.
I needed that time to get my head together. I needed a break from her. It drove her to the point that she said we needed a trial separation.
From then on, I told her that we would work things out. It hasn't been easy.

Now, it occurred to me tonight, that when we met, I treated her like a black guy would treat a woman. No offense intended here. I kept her in her place. I banged her regularly. I did what I wanted to do. She was crazy about me.
But, after getting married I figured that I should become a better guy. I turned into a nice guy, and that is when things started falling apart.
When I take an interest in her and try to be nice, she gets defensive. But, when I act like I don't care what she is doing, she comes to me and talks. It's weird. But, they are wired weird.
So, taking care of me should be the top priority. At least that is what my gut is telling me.

I also think that in some way, they need testosterone around them and in them. They need a strong man, not some wimpy nice guy. I allowed myself to become a wimpy nice guy. I've been slowly getting my balls back.

" Now for some observations. Thinking back over my relationship, abpd woman wants to be dominated by aman. If a mancannot dominate her, she will find a way to dominate him."

I learned the same. It was like working with a mule. Slack the reins and it would go to hell. Remember.....they have the emotional development of a 3 yo.

Beaten,

Mate, leaving you're browsers open for her to read...you are playing a game - com' on dude you know you are and you can feel just how bloody dangerous and stupid it is and you will loose long term. If you know anything about PDIs - they WILL win (in their head - anyway) and WIN at any cost - ANY!

You (or I) are not equipped to play her game - furthermore, she will lie, cheat, change the rules, change the mask, change the act, dodge, and duck to win.

Mate you're a pawn in her life - she's a queen.... it's no contest - you can only go forward - she can move all over the place and she'll sacrifice you in a heartbeat for another pawn.

Too many people are saying GTFO and for good reason - I second or whatever number it is now - GTFO of this train wreck you've got into. No one can accuse you of NOT trying - theres a list of posts on here that say you have. You only pass this way once don't throw your life energy away fighting a fight you'll never win. It's no shame, no defeat in retreat not when your own sanity is at stake. No woman is worth that.

If it's sex your after - pay a hooker - it's much easier and they'll do and say anything you want with as much feeling as the woman your married to; or cheeper still, do it yourself with "Mrs hand and her handy five fingers", but stop beating yourself up now...

You're a good man or you wouldn't be trying so hard to honour your vows with someone with no honour. Give yourself a pat on the back for the effort you've given, against her zero effort. Now be good to yourself because you deserve it.

Take care.

Beaten... Hope the weekend was good for you I really think you needed a break. I try hard to NOT give advise I make comments to my situation and hope it benefits all. Only thing is this I'm not into playing their games. I'm am going with my gut feeling instead of putting my feelings aside for anyone. Games are games my friend and many women or men can play but someone has to lose. I don't want to see the game take a turn to the dark side. I've tried playing the game the harder I tried the worse off I was. I wish these crazies we allowed into our lives were curable I don't think they are. I never give up hope for anyone but its not our fault they are damaged we didn't do it remember that.

PEACE!!!

BTAP, I gotta give you props for upping the alpha. I have been there. I was hopelessly beta like you, turns out women are f'ed up in what they really want in a man. The alpha provides the better seed in their estimation, but alphas don't hang around the the second half of the game (read child rearing). That's also why there are so many single moms out there.

Betas are better fathers, more willing to sacrifice their own dreams, aspirations and frame to support the wife and progeny. But women lose respect for betas because they don't want to make waves, would rather keep the peace. Even the fact that they have conceded their lives to making someone happy, makes them angry. They want to be told "no" sometimes. They know the hamster is present in their brains, but the nice guys, white knight betas don't. They dont even trust their own hamster cuz they know it will get them into trouble.

So to save your marriage, you up the alpha and she has responded favorably. Bravo. It may work for the long term as long as you keep your dukes up. She will $h!t test you looking for cracks in your alpha shell.

All this stuff works on NORMAL women. With the PD'd its a crap shoot. Its's always hard to tell if she is gaming you.

You all have given some fantastic advice. I'm committed to making this work, I want to keep my family together. Right or wrong, that is my decision.

That being said, while I was gone on my visit, my texts didn't go through to my wife. I did get ahold of her this morning. She was much more talkative than usual. In her mind, I must have blown her off while I was gone.
Looking at this, it helped me in our relationship.

It just appears that, men showing emotions or caring can be a turn off for most women. I don't get it at all. I just may have to toughen up my spine and not show such emotions. Which may be a good thing.
The ironic thing is, during our first few years together, my wife constantly accused me of not loving her and wanted me to show more emotions.

BTAP,

Women often do not know themselves what they want in a guy, and even if they do, it changes over time.

For us men it is a moving target living with them, which does not make it any easier.

I also get the impression that women want to be lead by a man, and they are continually testing if you are still up there with the leading pack.

The other idea I have is that women want someone with a strong character, so he can keep her in check when she crosses a line. This relieves her of verifying her own behavior, since that is now her man's task. So basically, she's now free to try whatever she wants, since her master will keep her on the right track anyway. In my view, this is a major reason why women try to hook a man so frantically: it basically comes down to unaccountability once you got your mate.

Unfortunately, men do not see it that way.

You, unaware of her leader tests, regard her behavior as a sign of a high maintenance woman, and you start to care less about her requests. At the same time, you are actually failing her leader tests, and she loses respect for you. After a while, she even resents you, and things go downhill fast.

I think this plays a big part in a lot of marriage issues.

Its called "sh it testing". Google it.

wow, not aware that it was so common these days in dating life, thank you for pointing that out.

Anyway, I'm done with women. The rest of my life will be dedicated to my kids and my own. Too much freaking high maintenance women; 'life can and should be simple' is my motto from here on.

For the hormone part, I'll get me a realdoll or something.

Jack, believe me, there is life after the PDI. And there are good women out there.