Hi all,
Have to say, so glad I found this site, I thought I was going nuts with my (soon to be ex-) wife.

Same issue as most of you guys, married a nice Asian lady, and all was fine for about 5 years, until the kids started coming. Though she did have strange ideas of ways to find blame in me, even for stuff she did wrong. I should have known back then what I know today; I would have been out of there with the speed of light.

Anyway, I also realize now why we had to get married as soon as possible, as in Asia it is frowned upon if couples live together un married ( her words). Yeah, right.

After the kids came, nothing was good enough, and everything was my fault. I lost my self-esteem and ended up in a depression 2 years ago. I then started reading a lot on relationships, and started realizing she had been the cause of my depression. Resentment grew as she kept denying, of course ("it was not me, your family has a depression history").

I started backfiring her behaviour, resulting in some serious fights ( she always attacked first, While I kept defending.

Earlier this year she even came to my office and attacked me in the lobby. She was lucky that I did not file charges for that ( then I did not know what I know now, and the kids were there too, go figure).

Also, she started talking to my superior at work what a terrible husband I was; he had his own ideas about it, since he knows me quite well.

Recently I came out at this NPD, and had an aha! Moment about what was going on in our marriage.
I started closing the sensitivity sensors for inputs from her side, and she must have noticed, since she starts to withdraw.

After the last big fight, she filed for divorce, and was definitely ****** that I did not co-sign the request. This way, the kids can later find out that it was mama who bailed the marriage; on targeting option less for her.

The last few weeks, I found a lot of info about NPD on the web, and started adapting my behaviour accordingly: whenever she throws some unreasonable complaint to me, I immediately and calmly state my point of view on the matter, and keep smiling afterwards. She sees this, and gets upset because I am not. I usually leave the room at that point and let her stew in her own broth.

Today, the kids really wanted me to put them in bed, instead of mommy. Sure enough, mommy found something irrational to complain me after hearing that the kids preferred my presence over hers. Initially taken aback, I realized after a few seconds what was really going on, countered her twisted point of view, and did not stop smiling for the entire evening.

I have to say, I start to like this game somewhat, being in the know and using it against her. It's payback time, but in a covert and hidden way. She'll never find out why my personality changed for the better, and she'll never be able to feed of me again.

After about half a year, the marriage will be dissolved, I'm preparing to take over the kids; still figuring out how to get that fixed without her really knowing what's going on. Back at ye, narc!

Remember....they shapeshift......vulnerable spots move. Hit the empty hole and say cya. It kills them.

Hey Jack

I've gotten some sound advise here from some good men. I wasn't going to post a reply sounds like your about to do to her what she's done to you. Its just my way of thinking and I have seen this crap in my actions. It has a way of coming back around full circle. I can understand where your coming from and can feel the anger you have or lets say disdain in your life caused by a toxic woman. All I can tell you like many will if you play her game you will lose and the part you lose is you. Get through your divorce be the man you were before. You have kids be the best example for them ........

PEACE

Jack,

Welcome to the site and enlightenment. I know what a great thing it was to find that there were other men that shared many of my same experiences. Do read the stories here and take the advise given for your own good and the good of your children. I would encourage you to look up the DSM-5 NPD criteria to see if your wife fits the 5 of 8 characteristics needed to be NPD. Of course nobody can be certain until a trained clinician does an evaluation. But so often that is not possible as almost no narc will go in for a diagnosis unless you trick them.

Please understand that what you are facing is a person that has a lifetime of practice at what she is doing, whereas you are a beginner. Narcissism doesn't just effect her personality, it IS her personality. In the face of that we emotionally healthy people are mere amateurs. This is why trying to have a rational conversation with them is impossible. You cannot reason with them. And PLEASE,,,,, PLEASE,,,, don't try to play her game, you'll lose every time. Do not think that you will harm her or "get even" with her. It WON'T happen. She's a black hole, empty inside, nothing there to harm, just calculated vengeance for anyone that dares question or cross them.

Keep all conversations to a minimum. Never give more detail than you have to and never let her see your emotions. It's all supply to her. Guard yourself my new friend and always protect your children at all cost. Be safe and be wise. We are all here for you. Much like yourself my marriage to a narc lasted 5 1/2 years and I'm going through a divorce now. So I can really empathize. Hang in there.

Mark : thank you for the advice.

You're right that it's better to leave and be my true self again.

As long as the marriage still lasts though, I'm not gonna sit back and let her have her way. The kids come first, and I'm doing my best to keep the calm in the family, but I won't let her get away anymore with her twisted points of view; I'm done feeding the beast.

If tension rises too high for backfiring, I let it slip; but inside there's a message flashing "Red flag!", and you realize you're discussing with something else than a normal person. It helps tremendously to keep your cool, and you get better at it every time. Also, the fact that all will be over in 6 months helps to let things slip easily.

The kids also notice that daddy does not let mommy walk all over him anymore, as things should be. I'm supporting them wherever I can, and they start to grow closer to me (see example from yesterday) instead of treating me like dirt, as mommy showed them before.

One thing that does worry me a bit is that I might get too much into this game, and risk making it a habit. On every occasion, I'm keeping in mind that this is not how a normal person behaves, and my response has to be filed in the "exceptional defense" category. It helps to keep your sanity.

I'm aware of that, but the core thing that does not change is the need to feed by controlling other's feelings. I'm gonna starve her at that point; making my opinion clear on every occasion, my morale stays high, while leaving only dust behind for her.

The point to remember in particular is that at good times, things are not real. Keeping in mind that the beast can come back any second without warning, helps to set perspectives right. Also, this should stay in the "exceptional circumstances" actions category, as I do not want to become paranoid around normal people.

Oh, how I long for freedom...

Every journey begins with the first step.......take it.

Thank you for the advice, BTDT.

As I said to Chump, I'm taking her at the core of her needs : controlling my feelings.

Reasoning does not work indeed, I figured that out a long time ago. The thing I do is just state my opinion, and leave it at that. I'm not trying to convince her of my point of view (a lost battle), just pointing out that I disagree and why.

That she's a pro is something I also found out the hard way, and like most of you, I covered it under the blanket of *whatever could be relevant at that time*. During our marriage, I noticed how she often behaved like my mother (another narc), defying all logic, getting hysterical over nothing, and above all : no empathy. Ironically enough, she often uses my mother as an example of how NOT to do things...

There seems to be a history to it : from the few stories of her past, it seems to me that her mother was a first class narc too, while her father played the obedient man-slave to serve all her needs. There were circumstances that called for some empathy (she had poor health and died around 40), but that does not allow for mental abuse. Thus, as a child, my wife has learned that husbands should be treated as man-slaves; anything better than that is a bonus, and should be rewarded. Yeah, right, thanks a lot!

As I said before, my mother was a narc too (god, do I attract them or what?), so I have some experience with the concept :
- *no logical reasoning with mommy, or you'll be sorry* is something I got to know already as a teenager.
- The bomb could go off anytime, so it was better to stay at a safe distance at all times.
- Feelings should be kept in a safe box, and protected at all times. The hurt has been archived as a training formality to learn this cruel fact of life, the only option to make it a bit acceptable.

No wonder I've been an introvert and shy person all my life; thank you, mom!

As said, I now regard these teenage experiences as a necessary lesson of life, and less as an unnecessary and unjust frustration. Funny how things come together sometimes...

In my teenage years, I turned to nature as an outlet (I grew up in the countryside), and it helped me to keep a somewhat normal perspective on things. You might wanna try this too, to get some distance from the issue.
Without it, I would probably already have been a case for some kind of institute.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that I'm not totally in the unknown here. I'm glad this behaviour now has an official recognition, and can not be considered "normal".

Concerning playing her game : I'm not out for revenge (although it would be sweet), but I'm not gonna let her walk over me anymore either: after stating my view on a conflict, it is a done deal for me. She can accept my view or refuse it, but I sure as hell do not give a toss about her choice anymore; I did my job, case is closed for me. This way, she has nothing to feed on, and at the same time I made it clear that I stand my ground when confronted with anything irrational that pops up into her head, inadvertently adding to her frustration.

What is important here however, is that I owe it to my children to show what normal behaviour is, and that men are NOT doormats.

Enough preaching for now, Peace to you all, and keep up the good spirit!

Comes down to freedom as Mel gibson....(another crazy) hollered. Men gotta learn that we do not own another's wreckage that wedid not create.

Hi all,

Just another example that popped up today.
She needed to bring one of the kids to music class today, and I promised to call her and tell her how to get there by bus.
Sure enough, I got so busy at work that I forgot.
When she was halfway using some bus, she calls me:

she : (angry) Why did you not call me as agreed?
me : I'm sorry, I was too busy and forgot. Why did you not call me during the day to remind me, you know I'm very busy at work?
she : I wanted to see if you think about us!
me : Well, now you know that I AM a busy man, like I have told you before.

Then I instructed her on how to continue the journey, without any further discussion. Case closed, I'm cool, she dunno.

2 minutes later, she calls me back to tell me in a friendly way that I don't need to hurry to pick them up, as the teacher arrived late too.

Voila, the way my discussions are handled these days, and I gotta say, it feels sooo much better than finding out who's the culprit here.

Jack welcome to the "brotherhood". I just arrived home from a dental surgery from hell that went well, therefore I gonna be short in reply. I have one word for you....PACIFY!

Welcome from a fellow mother from hell guy. I've only just worked out what my mother is/was (she's 84 and cut me off from all my family by masterful triangulation) now she's been committed to a nursing home and I have to talk to the family it's all coming out. Dear God what a witch she's been all her life - to my father, his family, her siblings, neighbors - AND ME!

I look at my childhood (only child) as a masterclass in devil dancing and keeping a low profile, making no fuss - because fuss = punishment - I also turned to long walks in the woods and distance in general and joined the RAF at the earliest point (16) just to GTFO but I utterly relate to you're words above - totally!

As a child, I may not have been consciously aware of it being "wrong" but I had enough of a gut feeling to GTFO at the first opportunity.

At 54 I've just been made consciously aware of just how wrong it was and I'm just now starting to heal... It's been a long (and bloody) road and too many times over my life I've repeated the same mistakes and not learned - because I was conditioned to accept the unacceptable, and to agree to keep the piece .

Thing is with time you think it's normal - It took my mothers long standing neighbors and my long lost but not forgotten (nor was I forgotten) family to tell me it wasn't and shock me on to the right path.


It's a tough but worthwhile path we're both on. Welcome again

Jack,

Welcome and Congrats...

Sounds like you got a handle on the situation.. It amazes me how our "map" that we learned in childhood carries on into adulthood mostly unchanged.. We find mates that resemble the parent that we had the least resolution with(regardless of gender).. And that dance continues until we update our maps..
I hope you know that you are attracted to Narcs as they are to you.. it is an eternal Narc/Codependent or empath bond that is playing out here... The selfless are attracted to the selfish and vice-versa..

I'm glad you have taken your power back.. I don't see you playing her game at all.. you aren't manipulative.. just tactful... Keep up the recovery.. you have risen from the ashes with more grace than I..

It is kinda fun being about to pick out all the Narcs in life.. like Tom Cruz.. it is as if we now have those glassed from the movie "They Live" That movie is totally about Narc/ cluster Bs

Godspeed

Hi New,

Sorry to hear about your past, man. I had 2 younger sisters and 1 older brother, so I did not get the brunt of the treatment. My brother was the favorite, and never got punished by mom. The 3 others of us learned soon enough about survival instincts : if another one gets picked out of the herd, at least I'm safe for now. My oldest sister even ran from home while studying, being a favoured target.
I'm so disgusted by that now, and ashamed that I succumbed to that kind of behaviour; but as a kid, I was not in the least knowledgeable of these kind of things. I only knew that something was very wrong in our family. If I would have known then what I know now, I sure as hell would have given mom a hell of a time.

This is getting a bit personal, but I remember the occasion where things started to shift. Basically, I had stood up to mom.
I was in my late teens, and I answered directly to an insult she threw at me; sure enough, I was grabbed and pulled by my hair immediately. This had not happened anymore for a decade, and being in my right and treated unjust, I felt extreme rage build up in me. So I grabbed her by her hair as well, and growled "Let go, god****!". The beartrap on my hair did not subside, so I started pulling her towards the floor by the hair. There we were, both holding on to each other like 2 animals keeping a death grip on each other. While pulling her downward, I threatened my order 2 more times, and to my surprise, suddenly my scalp was being released. I looked up, and saw her painfully rubbing her head, so I quickly got out of there.
After a few days, she showed me the bump on her head that my pulling had caused, to show what a bad son I was to do this to his own mother. I shrugged and walked on.
From that day on, my mother had realised that the days of physical punishment were over, and never attempted again (on me at least). I do not know what would have happened if she would have.

Unfortunately for my eldest sister, she now became the primary target, with the results stated above.

I'm kind of proud that I stood up for myself that day, but feel sorry that it did not happen earlier, and I did not protect my sisters.

I feel sorry for your past, being the only subject in your family you got the load of the treatment. Good to hear you finally start to get things in perspective, even after such a long time. You can share your experiences here to get it off your chest (in a new thread maybe), and be the man you should be; I'm curious for the stories of others, to feel less alone with this burden.

Be yourself, be great, and don't let anyone fool you anymore!

Hi Mike,

Thank you for the support.

I kind of had a hunch, but you made me realize that I have been a codependent.

As you can read from my other messages, I had been trained like this by my mother; she never taught us kids how to be self-reliant and independent (except my older brother). When we moved out of the home, her comment was always "you're too inexperienced to be out there", which was actually true.

So in a sense, the situation I'm in now is also a result of my mother's treatment (god, that is a biggie)...

You just lifted the cover off the question 'How did I get here' big time ...

Thanks, mate.

Whenever I can return the favor, let me know.


Be right, be true, and be proud.

Jack,

What you discribed with the final fight is exactly what I went through as well, only my mum and I was over much quicker If my memory is right.... I was 16 ish.

Following a minor row which I refused to accept blame for - mum-ster decided (since she told me I hurt her hand last time) to come at me in rage with a iron fire poker some 2foot 6 inches long. Now, since I was cornered and i knew this was going to be a no holds bared beetling, and the poker might prove fatal if not bloody daminaging, in pure self defence I attacked first. Enough to disarm her. I caught hold of her hand holding the poker, twisted it, and took the poker away from her with my free hand.

Then, I just snarled at her and waving the poker at her face told her that if she ever came at me like that again with the poker I'd not be the one needing medical treatment. I then walked away.

That was the last time I was actually attacked. I was threatened several times again but I just laughed at her and reminded her that I would and could defend myself.

My mum tells that to anyone who listens as "I attacked her"

Incidentally until this year, I thought that was just normal family behaviour, since I was always told it was because my mother loved me I was treated like that.

Hello New,

(changed my nickname as a token of the liberation that starts to come upon me)

We have been through the same thing; my mom also never could accept that her kids stood up to her (no matter what reason).

For me the time has come to make it clear that mom was wrong, very wrong. She gave me shelter, food and clothing while I grew up, but she failed big time on the development part.

I am planning to confront mom before she passes away, and put this on a plate right in front of her. I will make it totally clear to her where she failed, the problems that she caused, how she ruined my older sister's life and is responsible for the situation she's in now, and then some. And I will also tell her that this is NOT something caused by our father, as she usually tries to deflect to. He's as much a victim as we, but he had the guts to stay in a marriage with this narc for the children's sake, and for that I admire him. And I will end with wishing her hell for all the problems she caused.

She will of course refuse and try to rebuke, but my view on history will not budge; I'm an adult, and have a clear view on things now.

She has a short temper, and I will keep that in mind, but if things get physical, I might not be able to hold back anymore...

But then again, I do not care what happens to her anymore too, I did not have a real mother for a very long time ...

Hey BB,

Hope you're not aching too much anymore.

Just got a backlash from the narc yesterday, I overstepped a boundary apparently.
You're right about pacifying, I'll take it back a notch, since the kids also get hurt emotionally.

Now when will those 6 months to divorce finally be over?

She already agreed to leave the kids for me, says she will finally start enjoying her life, travelling around the globe.

She wanted to find another guy, I had no objections. Dunno if it was for real, or more the "Watch out! You're gonna lose me!"-thing (I had been opposed to divorce before coming here).

Here's to hoping that all will go smooth...