Hi,

Reading through this forum, I notice that all you guys ended up in trouble because you were being Mr Nice.

I wonder, if we had been "bad" boys, we would not be in this situation (bad in the sense of not caring for her needs, selfish); it would have been "safer" for us to have been a "bad" guy, because the B&NPDs would not be interested in us; being "bad" actually becomes a good defense against this type of abuse.

Something to think about...

Well, I actually was a bad boy when I met my wife. She went crazy over me. Of course, when are a bad boy you do things like bang chicks and have an overall good time.
Well, the thing was, I hit my early 20's and suddenly realized "what the hell am I going to do the rest of my life?" I started to make a conscious effort to change myself. I started thinking long term. In addition, all the things that attracted my wife to me also made her terribly insecure. So, somehow I blindly stumbled on how to become a better person. It wasn't easy. In the process my wife lost interest in me.

But, I am still better off being a decent person. Looking back, I wish I never became a bad boy. I see now that it was more of a response to childhood pain and my dad bullying me.

Bad boys may have fun, but they don't have a future.

Bad boys attract them.....a challenge thing. It allows them to he a bad girl too and you will have to deal with a lot more of her outside supply sources in a physical manner. They feed off the chaos they can create. Have at it if you will. I tired of it.



You can control them to a point. See reignitethefire.net. but it becomes a full time job.

IDK me personally I just paint all females black and leave them alone, its nothing personal that just how that are.

I say that because I was once at christian singles event where men and women can share there view points on relationships and what not, and this one lady was like she wants a gospel thug (A GOSPEL THUG) and the women in the room when crazy in agreement, and the the minster that was in the room look at the men and was like come down its ok guys. (in my head I was WTF man)

Same event and a different lady was like I want a loving man, but not a man I can walk over( women in the room when crazy in agreement again). I said to myself why would you want to walk over someone that you love? until I found out that the chance of them not being able to love might be the reason why.

These women want there cake and ice cream and look skinny to, just leave them a alone and pray God send you a crown and live a good life.

And remember God has given these women over to reprobate mind so they ain't worth my time as well.

Jack,

My perspective is a bit different.

These narc women are attracted to nice, empathetic men for very self serving reasons. They know that they abuse men going in, they've done it all their lives. So they need a man that's patient, kind-hearted, given and caring, a committed fighter. After all this means that no matter how badly they treat them, this type of man will keep coming back, trying harder to please her and getting kicked in the teeth for his troubles. They would not pick a self-serving, selfish man who only cares about himself, i.e. "a bad boy". That may look exciting to a shallow woman, but a narc knows this kind of guy won't stick around to take the abuse, he'll split, he has no stamina or commitment.

So, we nice guys are targeted, bad boys need not apply. Having said that, they will absolutely cheat on us with a bad boy, because he IS exciting. But they only do that when they know that USDA prime NS is patiently waiting at home.

They are attracted to nice guys because we have supply and they can twist us. They are also attracted to badasses because they fear them and can be controlled by them......and they need that control. You figure it out....

In reality, it's a no win situation.

They need controlled, but they will rebel against it and take it underground any chance they get. For years I called my wife out on her behavior at times. I really spoke loud and clear on the subject. She would eventually have a falling out with her bad influence friends and become a really good wife. But, once those friends would come back around the behaviors would start up again. I was again forced to be the bad guy. It's just, if there is enough of those man hating friends, their influence outweighs yours.
Again, its no win.

I have a future!

And the reason why nice guy finish last, because she had her fun with the bad boy's

Nice guys are "beta" and are good candidates for fathers and good provider types. They have a purpose in the feminine imperative, in that they sustain her progeny.

The bad boys are "alpha". They look for physical cues like big arms, hairy, square jawed, narrow hips etc. These are indicators of high testosterone (high value in that they would probably be the best survivors, ergo so would her progeny) They are usually jerks or a**holes, but for some reason chicks are drawn to them. Their hamster tells them that they are more masculine (not ones to hang around and play daddy), they are aloof, devil-may-care types and that makes them wet. They like being treated like wh*ores sometimes. They like to be spanked and dominated. Why do you think 50 Shades was so popular?

Before the industrial age the alpha man was also the good provider. He was a strong and tireless worker. He made good bank from his labor. These guys ran their households and their wives. You may have had a father or grandfather like this, but chances are (like me) your father was beta.

So the conundrum comes in where alphas and betas are what she has to choose from. Beaten was a bad boy at the beginning of his relationship, and I will wager things were great. Then he started to become more beta and the wife did not take it well. She started looking for other alphas. That is why women $hit test you, to gauge your alpha qualities. Betas often fail and she starts to take control of the relationship. That is when your proverbial goose is cooked unless you up your alpha game.

Now, what to do if you were never alpha to begin with? (like so many of us as the disordered are attracted to us betas) Read up on upping your alpha game. I will tell you it doesn't tend to work on the disordered, they hooked you because of your beta qualities, and they have had their share of alphas on the carousel, even when you were married to them and they got bored with you, boohoo. I think now that this is the best indicator of whether you are dealing with a truly disordered woman or a normal one. The normal ones will respond positively, the disordered will turn up the volume.

See F'ed in the head

Partly right Soldier.....omega, gamma, and delta males are out from the start. I am a sigma male. To my ex my nice side was weak and at the same time when I dealt with her alpha proxies I was deemed "cruel". I rode with a three piece patch club for several years. Chock full of alphas. I never had a real issue with them but they were wary of me. I could control the ex but it tired me. Sigma description follows.

Genius/Cleverness -Determination to not be dragged into a system where they are either ruler, or servant. -Unique experiences that changed them both for the good and the bad, it motivates and informs but never warps -Success at something obscure, but valuable -Always sort of..off key..in a room full of people who will raise their hands in approval of something the Sigma is the one who will raise their hand against it and not care what the others think. -Odd sexual successes, the pretty girl gets down in the stair case with the Sigma then moves on and never talks about it again. -Walking in cold, the Sigma tends to draw eyes to them, instead of returning eye contact, we do what we came to do without the whole backslapping "hey how ya doing" BS that a Beta will do, we may nod a head to the eye contact but not be troubled by it either way. -Sigma knows instinctively that a Beta will roll up, we ignore them and bother with the Alpha if we feel like it. -Will also have fun, oddball, but true stories to tell the women eat up like chocolate to the point they often say "tell me more"..which of course..we won't -Important difference b/t Alpha and Sigma is empathy, we won't put up with someone punking someone weak out..Sigma knows this and thus avoids social situations where that is likely to occur. -In general a good test of Sigma is how many places a Sigma male is invited to, or events to go to, how good she looks that does the invite, that we turn down not out of fear..we have better things to do then put up with that bull****. -Have an on/off switch, when a Sigma wants to, we can charm any women, we know it, but why bother? -Common saying among women about a Sigma is "..there is something about him.." ie "I tried to throw him some ***** and he turned me down"

Good list. There is something about the Sigma.

a high sense of perception on social dynamics. - Sigmas also tend to attract beta male followers, as if he could also build an army. - The Sigma always reads the group environment, and will seldom put himself in a social situation where he does not possess leverage. - Ejection, sigma will quickly vanish if he doesnt get what he wants - Charismatic, I think this is a defining quality - Sigmas are darker on whole, they are not happy chirpy individuals, unless it is needed to gain something. - Shock factor, there is always a shock factor and inability for people to read them - Not mainstream, they will never reflect an ideal, they are fringe members, but situated at the top of the fringe

Looking back I remember the ex being ****** because I would never make "happy chat" in a social setting. And when I found the roughest guy in the place eyeballing me I would just nod and give him my back. She saw that as disrespect. My attitude was what's he ever done for me. She was impressed with the barroom brawlers though. One of her dikdancers left quickly after 15 minutes around me. He told her "it's the silent ones you have to watch out for. She was ******* Got in my face with "what did you say?". My response?....."Not a dam thing."

You sound like my oldest brother. He rides bikes, blows up stuff for a living. Lives where he works, always states away from his wife, yet he stays married. He always had chicks flocking to him (used to make me jealous, of course), never knew what they saw in him. He did always have some BS story to share, but never really gave a $hit about the hangers-on.

The pu$$y offer is of course a **** test. Turn it down, and you may be a high value male to them (you'll not jump on any piece of a$$ just because it is offered)

In my opinion women who like bad boys are bad themselves ...its nonsense to think a good woman would ever fall fot a bad boy...

the media typically portrays black males as alpha and/or smart (except for Irkle or the current pres) and white males as beta and stupid. .just sayin' Hardly any alpha white guys anymore...

Boy you need to get out more.

LOL

So true the issue is that society make women look and seem harmless but that in it self is projection. Think about it when was the last you heard a woman dumping and a bad boy for a nice guy?? But its the norm for her to dump a nice guy for a bad boy. During the process the bad boy abuse her and she abuse the nice guy.

I'm reminiscing fondly about this. When I was a bad boy and met my wife, she was very bad. In fact, in a way, we straightened each other out. She went crazy over me with jealousy. She was so afraid that I was out cheating on her every second that it drove her nuts. On the other hand, I called her out on her sh*t without fear. She would immediately obey me. I loved it.
It's funny, one time during this phase, my wife's mom made a comment about how horrible she was before, and how she has made up for everything now after meeting me. Life works in funny ways.

Again, after buying the house and having the kids, I really toned down. My wife began to refer to me as "boring old daddy."
Although, I did refer to her as "grandma" a couple of times.
We had some incredible times together. I will never forget them.
But, ultimately, I had to become a beta to figure out how to stabilize myself. I had to learn to get along with and work with others. I had to put my desires aside and work two jobs. I think what happened was ultimately for the best. Again, it came with a lot of heartache, but after seeing how great my kids have turned out, it was well worth it.
I gave them the chances in life that I never had. You can't ask for more than that.

Chump, for some reason your story made me think of Bill Clinton. The part about reading people in a room. He had to learn to do that because of his alcoholic parents. He had to read their moods to know how to act, yet he is somehow aloof. Were either of your parents alcoholics? That is, if you don't mind me asking.

I have to differ on that.

True dat!......

My parents were actually solid, good people. I was just never prepared for crazies that could present as normal. My aloofness came from moving to the east from Ohio at ten yo and being bigger and stronger than the rest of my class and with a country accent. Lead to a lot of "testing" and a lot of my meeting older brothers. I learned to read a crowd for stupid and had a leave me be attitude......

In my club days I never had much trouble while the other guys were always tested and I flew colors solo everywhere. Buddy from another club said it was the way I carried myself.

How you carry yourself means everything. Before I turned 12 I was a skinny little kid and got picked on a great deal.
I begged my dad to teach me how to fight and buy me some weights. He refused, being the narc that he was. Plus he always called me a 98 pound weakling.
I hated this.

So, I had to find a way to at least strengthen myself. My dad kept heavy lead bricks in our garage. So, I went out over the summer and lifted those bricks and did curls with them. When the fall came, I was invited to a party. All the athletes were there. The guy who had the party had a set of weights on his porch. Everyone tried to lift those weights. No one could get them over their head. I walked up to them and believed that there was no way I could do it. I squatted down and heaved them up, and by God I was the only one who could successfully lift them over my head. Talk about earning a reputation overnight. Something changed in me that night. No one ever messed with me again, even going into my adult life. Trust me, the women pick up on that, too. And even though I am a shell of the man that I used to be, I still have some residue left from my Alpha days. I'm really trying to turn that residue into a new man.

Sometimes rejection is the strongest aphrodisiac. Took me years to understand that. It is the game the bpd plays with a partner and why so many of us are here. Anything good has to be worked for to have respect. Funny.....it works with alpha males too. When I nod to them and smile, then go my own way it deprives them. A line has been drawn and they are uncertain. They will hunker down, drink beer, and put on a show to their admiring betas. Alphas have to clash. When you dismiss them you just ****** on their fire and they become wary. Actually borders on respect.

Here I go again, taking a different tack. Well that's what makes this forum so interesting. So please bear with me.

I think all of the above is true enough, if we're talking about women with normal emotional responses. And it's true that our PDI women will have certain things in common with a normal woman. However, I don't think that we can lose sight of the fact that we are NOT dealing with normal women here. They do not have normal emotional responses, nor are their goals the same as a normal woman. The ultimate goal of an NPD woman is narcissistic supply, period! Nothing else matters, it's ALL about supply to them. If they think they can get it from you, then they will. And they'll do and say anything they need to in order to drain you of everything you have, emotionally, spiritually, financially, you name it they'll take it from you.

Just my two cents.

And if they can not cross your enforced boundaries? What then? These women are mostly BPD.....not NPD.....they fear rejection. More than anything. NPD is mostly male.....BPD is mostly female. BPD takes from us because of our faux nobleness.....and fear. Reject them and hold your wall. You will see a difference. Still like a pitbull in a poodle parlor though. Research BPD and get back to me.....

BTAP....read this one.

http://gettinbetter.com/dragon.html

My feeling is that BPD is the feminine corollary to the masculine NPD. Similar but different. You can play on the BPD weak spots when you choose to do so but never the NPD . NPD will blow up......BPD will be like herding cats if you choose to do so.

NPD.......worship me or else.......BPD.....love me but do not get close or else.

All this talk about alpha's and me bringing up my younger years maybe jolted something back into me a bit. I walked a little more confidently today. I noticed women having more conversations with me today. Also, a couple of dudes I know commented on how they liked the beard I grew.

Yesterday I was dealing with this guy who recently played college football. He's a black dude that lifts weights everyday. For some reason I made a smart ass remark to him, just kidding around. He laughed. Later he made a joke and playfully punched my arm. That is a definite sign of acceptance.

Oh, and today, my wife was standing next to me. I decided to slap her ass for her. I just walked over and slapped that butt just hard enough for her to know I meant it, but easy enough for it not to hurt. She just said, "hey now." Then she got really happy and was singing a bit. lol.

God I was so much happier when I was alpha. Why the hell did I feel it was my duty to change myself to take care of everyone else's needs when I became a father? I still think it was the right thing to do though.

Chump, I believe that you are 100% correct.

Thanks CHUMP for the link on Sigma males.

I often wonder how I fitted in this society’s expectations of a person. Never wanting to be a Alpha male due to all the trapping I see in that type of environment and social behavior. For all Alpha kings their throne room soon becomes a prison within a prison, something no true Sigma person would ever want. Plus if one read into the Alpha traits (personality behaviors) it will read more as an Anti-social and/or narcissistic trait(s) which again would never to something I could be or care to be.

Beta is something I believe all of us start with but a budding Sigma soon appears in children in their early years. This goes true for Alpha as well. In short we are what we are.

But again being a Beta is something I would never be due to being more of a rebel (without a cause) then my care-takers care for. This Alpha driven society (think about the 1 percent) would prefer all of us to be and stay as betas or deltas but see sigmas as ether enemies or (one they never really trust) allies. As I see it beta is a life of servitude to a Alpha run society (economy/fiat system) and delta are drones to the betas. I personally would prefer eating a bullet then living a life as a beta in slavery and servitude.

As for love. Women can love Sigma males but can’t possess them. But can possess Alpha (bad boys) males. See Samson and Delilah and Cleopatra and Julius Caesar. For a women who can’t possess a male must be a strong women herself and if not she lives on very shakily ground throughout the relationship. Toxic dysfunctional women can and will possess a alpha or beta male and will rule them with a iron hand. I often wonder if most beta male coming out of toxic dysfunctional relationships morph into sigmas through their healing process. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes only to become someone wiser stronger and more in depended of self then others. And if that’s not a Sigma in the making what is?

I see television is working it's charm on you. Ha! Did you all make out afterwards. Did you slap his butt too? Mmmmm. Yummy acceptance!

Again a very well presented piece of logical writing by James. It would be important for any male who has survived the toxic relationship (or any male for that matter) to look into the possible avenues and variations of ones own healing. The idea that there is no defeat in retreat is again solidified in this well thought out piece of the logical "possibilities" of reinvention.

Some of us are born the way we are, some are created through the influences or our individual upbringing, and some are forged by the experiences of our adult lives. The good news is that reinvention is possible at any time or place or stage of ones life journey. It is a matter of acceptance of personal responsibility to ones own sense of self determination and destiny independent of assumed belief structures, as in "thinking outside of the box". The analogy of the Phoenix rising from the ashes is as appropriate and visionary today as it was in its ancient inception and time of origin. The power and vision gathered from the bold act of self determined destruction of existing assumed ego is the supreme rare phenomena in the present distracting and competitive world of the modern limp wrist mortgage eating drones and the attendant followers of media enforced fashion. I think of it as a personal "upwising".

As to you Mouse there is no crime in being contrary, as a matter of fact it can be refreshing and perhaps worth considering. I do have a suggestion for you. If you would stick to just one personal identifying moniker we may be able to explore the possibilities of your concepts and comments in a positive and productive light that may have some long term benefits to the members of the forum. This present hit and miss, now you see em now you don't, is well...you know.

Good assessment James,

I am not too sure how many abused betas go sigma. I suspect there are beta+ men that just don't fit the alpha schema. As you noted a lot of alpha behaviour matches NPD. Beta men in general don't flee......they try to fix and are trapped in the cycle for years. Alpha men hate to be laughed at and a Sigma can put one over the edge with a smile and a nod. I spent a lot of time around the alphas. I noticed I always ******* their delicate feelings.

Alphas thrive on punking people out. Sigmas don't often stand that.....much less a case of white knightery than a chance to punk the alpha out. Sigma comes from some pain source.....probably from being exposed to the rigid social mores of the alpha and having none of that. Sometimes it is the rebel that makes things equal. It is the sigma that will laugh at the alpha's failure when everyone else is ducking. Sigma understands the alpha game and distances himself from it until annoyed. Sigma has extreme observational skill......probably from watching for alpha attacks for years. Alphas have a fragile self esteem and can deal with no challenge. Sigma is the guy with solid identity and self esteem hence when the game is on sigma is the one that can tip the train off the track. Sigma and alpha both know this.

In good times you may find the sigma sitting with betas or other groups in contentment. Sigma is not defined by his environment. But you can he assured he is watching everything. Sigma will lead when there is no leader but try to make him lead and he will not. Sigma will not play the game but will often win.

A good example of sigma male is Val Kilmer playing Doc Holliday in the movie Tombstone. Sigma does not have to rise to every issue as alpha does. Sigma knows when you give a man your back you just punked him. Alpha's are very wary around Sigma. Sigmas confuse people. Maybe it is developed as a defense to alpha.....maybe it is genetic......

Alpha vs Sigma.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F3wYMkpovo

Chump,

I think I may be misunderstanding you. Are you suggesting that most NPD women or PDI women in general are in fact not NPD but rather BPD instead? And if so what data are you sighting to arrive at that conclusion? If that were true it would negate the very purpose for this site.

I agree that NPD is far more common among men, roughly 75% of narcs are male. And the numbers for both men and women are rising, even faster among women. (Read "The Narcissism Epidemic, by Jean M. Twenge, PHD) However, to say that, "most NPD women are really BPD", seems a stretch that cannot be supported by real world data. The catch here as we both know is that actual diagnosis of NPD in males or females is spotty as they do not submit to therapy. Or are you offering a personal opinion based on your own experiences?

You suggested that I research BPD for myself. I have done so for the past two years. I did so because we also know that there is great overlap i.e. co-morbidity among PDI individuals. So that an NPD woman can posses many traits of a BPD woman and vise versa.

To be clear, in my case my wife was clinically diagnosed by two certified psychologists with NPD, independent of one another. This is a really rare case where she actually went into counseling twice in order to gain validation about me, and how it was all my fault. But in the course of the sessions it became clear to both counselors that she was in fact NPD. So they broke us apart into separate sessions to tell me what they were observing and that I had better consider getting out, and getting my son out fast!

My only point is that I would be careful to suggest that NPD in women is so rare that the men here should not take it seriously. Perhaps this is too broad a generalization. I think you first and foremost want to help men here as I have read your many thoughtful and helpful posts.

There remain some of us, unfortunately that really did get hooked up with a certified NPD and thankfully lived to tell the tale.

Most NPD are male.....most bpd are female. Both about 75%/25%. diagnosis is not spotty..many go in for diagnosis and few stick with it. NPD plays the therapist and BPD fights them so few get effective therapy. With the population tilted slightly in favor of women it holds that most of the noxious women are bpd. Hence BPD females outnumber NPD females 3:1. If you disagree pull some numbers and sites for me. You can read that on many sites. It does not negate the purpose of this site as James himself refers to them as " toxic dysfunctional females". And the site is "men who Are abused"..... Not men who love NPD. A rather inclusive phrase I might add. Read the numbers my friend.....they are documented..... As to diagnosis.....many pdocs hold that the best way to deal with bpd's is to ignore them. If you really look into it you will find that bpd's have a better record of treatment....however bpds tend to destroy the pdoc also. They require a pdoc with extensive bpd experience. Many pdocs diagnose bpd as bipolar so they can drug them and be done. If you would like to tell me the difference between NPD and BPD I would be glad to listen.....

As I have said....understanding is the key to acceptance.

Took 4 docs to diagnose mine as bpd but when she was the ex told me....yeah that is me and why.

Actually....women submit to therapy much more than men.......might the NPD diagnosis for men not be more like 90% if men got diagnosed at the same rate as women? I see some "shoot the.messenger in this exchange". Maybe feeling a bit alpha?

Therapy is trendy with women right now.......much like tattoos.

Chump,
I don't understand why you have to characterize my questions as "disagreeing" with you. I am simply trying to better understand your position and stir a conversation that may be helpful to others.
I didn't say you were wrong, and I don't think either of us can or should be condescending, as if we have it all figured out. We don't, the psychologists don't have a much better handle than those of us that have been victimized. So I think we can pass along that which we have experienced ourselves safely and try to glean nuggets from the books and sites we read.
I also never said that BPD women weren't more common than BPD men. I agree with that assessment, my first wife was BPD before BPD was well known or defined. I rather stated that NPD women exist, and that's a simple truth. I really don't concern myself with ratios or proportions among the various DSM -5 disorders. I think it is more important to pass along that which we know to help others.
There are defining characteristics that are unique to NPD and BPD that set them apart. I understand that you are particularly interested in BPD as it seems this has impacted you more than a true NPD. I think that's just logical. But those of us that have experienced a true malignant narcissist have something of value to pass along here as well. Both experiences are needed in order to educate the men that come here.
If you read a lot of Shari Schreiber she will have you believing that ALL NPD's are not NPD's at all. In fact when you look at her responses to NPD questions she cannot help but bring up BPD in every answer. This kind of bias I think is a disservice to those that seeks answers from her.
The bottom line here is that only a qualified clinician can do a competent diagnosis. Finally I agree that there is plenty of diagnostic data on BPD as they don't avoid counseling like NPD's do. However, NPD's by definition don't think there's anything wrong with them, so they see no need to see a professional, unless their partner can con them into going. So in fact all of the doctors I have read say that NPD is grossly under reported due to this fact. And the prognosis for both is grim for the reasons that you stated. My ex bolted from both counselors as soon as the spotlight was directed at her and away from me. Who really knows what the numbers are when the docs aren't sure? I really do recommend that book I referenced as it's the most recent and exhaustive data compiled on NPD.

All I want to get across is please don't throw all PDI women in the BPD basket, it's simply not accurate. There are in fact real hard core cases of the "worship me or else" clan out there. I know, I married one.

I will not pursue this further as it's not fruitful for the group. I will simply agree that we have somewhat different perspectives, both well educated and both well supported. Deal?

So, are the sigma's aloof from those around them? If so, is this a good thing?
I've noticed that I can blend with alpha's and beta's pretty easily. I am wondering though, is that just blending in? Am I really bonding?
In a way, is it a fear of committing yourself and belonging?

I like independence. I like the thought of being a sigma. But, I am tired of being emotionally isolated, also.

The O' CHUMP and the reference to undermining the group set a tone did it not? If you have a question ask it straight. Do not slam the messenger. Started out as a slap down. I took offense to that. Keep it scholarly.

Mine was finally diagnosed BPD and my continued contact with the therapist indicates bipolar as well. That combo yields a strong npd presentation. Bpd can evince symptomology of malignant npd as the last phase of a cycle. Bpd however can respond to treatment if they buy into it. An NPD never bends. Many pdocs will go the npd dx in order not to fail. NPD correction is rare. Bpd can be treated if the bpd buys into it. Bpd feels....but too much. Overwhelms their system so they deny it. NPD never does......but can feign it. Dangerous place for us......like the swamp of the dead in lord of the rings.

Bpd often hook up with NPD and can evince as npd if it suits them. You can break a bpd if you go hard but never an NPD. Never meant to offend you but we have the overlay of alpha, beta, omega, delta, lambda males on top.of this and it confuscates things worse. That is where sigma male comes from.....too many games. The sigma does not play well.

Like I have said before.....attack the argument....not the man.

Nobody attacked you Chump. Chill. Sheeesh.

Sigmas are never aloof.....just seem that way as a distraction.... Don't respect beta as they will not stand and sigma will f with alpha when they feel the need. Alpha has to rise at every occasion to prove themselves. Sigma will give alpha their back to prove they are not worth dealing with but an alpha hand on a sigma shoulder can bring down god's own fire.

Sigma does not need to bond but gathers followers in a way. If a sigma does bond you can bet it is solid. Sigma does not like to lead but will in an instant.....untill it bores him. Sigma can get along with beta and all leaders......betas love him. Sigmas will stand for someone being that is being punked but never adopts them. More about standing up to alpha and saying "I don't give a ****". Alpha hates sigma but respect them as hell can let lose and sigma can and will fight. Alpha is wary of sigma.

Sigma is committed to themself in a way but not so much the ego. Sigma can go their own way and not give ****. As I have said.....it probably comes from past pain and a drive to rectify that. Sigma has an identity not based on others. Right or wrong they defend it.

Sigma sees the world as it is and walks through it in their own way. Beta tries to follow any rule and alpha dictates ever changing rules. Sigma is happy to chat and learn but despises a hand on him. Because sigma makes decisions that may not follow crowd rule he is considered strange.

Women avoid Sigmas until they see alphas back down. Then it is all on. Sigmas can be a bit unpredictable as they own their own ruleset. Alpha. Just wants sigma to go away

Brings me to beta strategy with women. Women will mate with an alpha and find a beta to raise the child.......I know........it happens. The woman can have "superior" genes and beat beta into submission as a good provider. Really does happen.

The strength in sigma is the Ability to walk away. A sigma may sign onto a family situation and there will be hell to pay for transgression.

Hehe.....you edited the original and I caught it in the quote.... . Like I said. Discuss anything based on the argument. It is a strange and twisted world we deal with when with crazy. We do not need to perpetuate it!

The ex never understood the strength of turning your back on an ahole. If you were afraid you would have begged or fled. Giving your back tells him and the whole room he is not worth dealing with. Done deal. The ex wanted a fistfight.....that would have made me her hor.....

Know when to hold em....know when to fold em....know when to walk away....know when to run.

I do have to weigh in with my own personal experience on this one. The problem with PDI's is the incredible diverse variations of the conditions and symptoms presented and demonstrated of each unique individual. Some are subtle and some not so subtle. Some are well defined and some are not. For example within the BPD spectrum there is the witch, waif, and the queen. One sufferer may be strictly demonstrative of the actions of one of the defined and described models, or the blending of the variations of two, or heaven help us, a mish mash of the whole insane spectrum.

In my researching the PDI phenomena I determined that the individual I was involved with was CLEARLY "histrionic" with overtones of Narcissistic Personality Disorder demonstrated by her grandiosity. She did not ever rage, she had no predictable breaking point. She was cunning, foxy, seductive in her presence, and had a heart as cold and dangerously deadly as black ice on a dark road. This woman proved out to be dangerous and destructively criminal in thought and action not only to those around her, but also to her own self and well being.

It is my opinion that many female victims of violence are just such women. The violence they experience is by their own design, invitation, and manufacture. A lesser man would have rung her neck for the acts she perpetrated and followed through on with me. Conversely it is my belief this is also true for the male PDI. At some point they themselves meet the right person who may indeed be a dangerous PDI themselves or perhaps just balls out enough to deliver them a bit of their own "medicine". The problem with this hypothesis is there are no factual "numbers" to prove the assumption. What I will say is that if a dude had pulled that crap with me I would have had to...balance the scale. But since I am Sigma she got the back and an immediate dump. I folded em and ran. No discussion, no explanations. No tears or long good-byes. My suffering was personal and revealing.

Therefor, with the wildly diverse variations within the spectrum of PD's that are all seemingly to be dependent upon conditions and circumstances presented at time of trauma symptom onset and hence continuing forward to wax and wane in tandem with the stress and strain conditions presented of their evolving lives, it is rather difficult to categorize any one of them into neat boxes of description irregardless of gender. My opinion is that f**ked up is f**ked up. Why quibble the nuances of opinion or experience? The order of the day for me is...how do we put ourselves back together after our "fact"?

Chump,
Been tied up for a few hours. I just saw how my post came across. I wanted you to know that I didn't type that "O Chump O" thing, my browser froze and that's what it inserted. Fair is fair and I would never dis you for expressing your views. I'm sorry for how that may have looked to you. I'm not that way. I've nothing but respect for you. It's all good. Posted with my phone. lol

Good enough sir. As sigma I do see things as they appear....and I do look twice.....or thrice. After the ex I do countenance nuanced speech.. if I misunderstood quoted speech I do apologize. In my world who is right takes second to what is right.....spent three years dealing with who was right over the facts.....arguing whether 5 was greater than 2. Wait...that is how they teach math in school now isn't it? Close enough is good enough. HA!

I do not care so much if your girl is bpd or NPD but I can tell you. You can control a bpd if you are strong and straight. Npd you have little chance. On the other hand an Npd will be destroyed by a bpd.....male or female. Quandry, no? I hope yours is bpd for your sake if you want to fix it.

Every three months mine would blow in a weird way. I marked 3 months in advance and was only wrong by two days once. Rest of the time she was pure bpd which I could actually dance. Coming up to the quarterly eruption she was pure npd....I was Wtf did I do? When she ran off with alpha Jr. She was all "I was obsessed, i could not help myself, I was drunk"et al. She knew what she did and I let her pour it out. I showed up in his club hangout and he hid in the bathroom. His Sgt at arms who knew me came over to apologize....typical alpha. I told him Jr's ass was mine untill he apologized........Jr hid in the bathroom til I left. I was no longer a clubman at that point but still held respect. Next time he put hands on me from behind and I put him down with three moves. Sgt at arms asked if we were good. I told him he and I was always good. Ex had an issue with me not fighting fair. The fair fight is the one you lose.

Cost me 3000 to cancel.the cruise I set up for my son's wedding after that one. She begged her iway back so I made her ride pillion all the way down and back. She insulted my familly so I sat back and watched. Her birthday came and
i made it good.... Her son' s came....same thing. Came up to mine....she said "you have a birthday coming up.don't you?".

As my bday approached all I heard about was her celebrating her girlfriend's birthday two days after mine. My day came so I called and said let's go to dinner for my birthday. I was gonna pay but she made a show of tired and I had to sit on the porch while she slept two hours. She ******* all evening and never said "Happy Birthday" so I let her pay.

I showed up to pick her up after her gf's bday and she had them all show me their boobs...so I grabbed one and said almost....boy did I catch hell. I engineered my escape after that one....

Birthdays, jeeez don't get me started.
Hers was a two month long marathon affair, I do not exaggerate. We'd do a huge party day of, expensive gifts, etc,,, Then it was dinners and special weekends away for the next two months all under this is still my birthday! The last birthday of mine that we spent together, she graciously remembered to make mention of it 3 months later! Not a word for three months. Then she wanted to celebrate 3 days before Christmas, sheesh. I think she just had an extra Christmas present laying around and called it my birthday. I told her, that ship has sailed, I'm not celebrating an event you ignored for 3 months. Then I took her Christmas present back for a refund.

My point. Happy Birthday is two free words. And free. I only grabbed that boob to make the point that I could....and would. After all I paid for her whole family at her birthday. Have to admit I held her to mine.....just needed to hear the two words. It was my day as she eloquently put it.....as soon as she said "you have a birthday coming up, don't you" I knew her plan to blow it off. I only gave her the Chance. The look on her face with her friend's boob in my hand...priceless.

I noticed a slight change in my wife this week since I have been changing my behavior. I am being more withdrawn, more manly. I noticed she has been friendlier and more talkative with me. I like it.

I suspect, based only on my observation and some reading, that many NOD females are diagnosed as being BPD.
It just seems that society has not caught on to the very real facts that women can be, and often are, just as sociopathic as males.
Bpd seems to have less of an evil stigma than ASPD or NPD and therapists and society seem to want to avoid seeing the " Genler sex" in this way.