hi guys, most of you know my story...i recently laid down the law with my gf, i told her i was at the end of my rope with her and she begged me not to go, we have a 2 yr old and shes pregnant with another. she said she would do anything, she admits that shes "broken" and is willing to work on herself. she was abandoned by her mother and put into foster care as a child for a year, then her sister got her back and raised her..she's got alot of issues, classic BPD symptoms that she either displayed in her past or is still displaying. she is in AA and has 4 years sober time, she goes to AA meetings regularly and has come a long way but she is still a mess in a lot of ways. She is very critical of me, nothing is ever good enough, she is emotionally abusive...she used to sleep around, she used to hurt herself..cutting etc..but she is done with all of that radical behavior...although she does threaten suicide once in a while..or she'll say that "she thought about killing myself today because of all of the stress.." things like that...anyway, after we spoke, she agreed to see a shrink to work on her issues...she begged me to stay etc...so my question is, what can i expect from her getting help>? will it help her at all? will she change? i will say that she is basically honest, and although i caught her 'looking on a dating website.." she isnt a cheater (to the best of my knowledge) so i do think there is somthing there to work with, i just need her to really be able to change so she can be intimate, trusting, things like that..at this moment, she is incapable of those things...what do you guys think>?

1. Has to be a bpd specialist.

2. She has to "own" her disorder.

3. Has to be driven to recover.

4. Has to actually go.

Geeze Jim I dunno-safest play is to move on--I don't agree she is basically honest from what I have read..long shot buddy I'm sorry

From my research IF they can follow the guideline that Chump illustrated the answer is YES they can improve with YEARS of therapy. Unfortunately not to the degree of sustaining long term intimate relationships generally. For the therapist romantic relationships is not the ultimate frontier of therapy goals for the PDI. The goal is for them to be able to learn to live productive and fulfilling lives to the best they are able with their liability, and sadly this does NOT include functioning romantic relationships.

The proof is in the numbers. The most successful in treatment are those who forgo romantic relationships altogether therefor avoiding the triggers and pressure and dis-regulation of emotions that result for them. So yes she can "improve". It is all a matter of degree in therapy. You must remember it is not an illness that is "cured" like cancer or resolves and goes away after its duration like a cold, it is life long in duration and only marginally tractable. That is why it is termed a "disorder". Try not to lose sight of that hard boiled fact. Unless of course you "believe" a pumpkin can "change" and become a carriage or a lion will become a vegan or a leopard will change its spots.

In layman terms she will always be limited and f**ked up. The question is... to what degree?

Mark,
I do believe the reason is because we are decent men. We are the type who will stop the car and pick up that little stray running down the shoulder of the freeway. We will instinctively risk ourselves in traffic to do the "right" thing. We are men of principles and "rules". White knights...Rebels without a cause? Lost boys who rescue broken girls.

I guess that's why I was willing to sacrifice myself if need be for this god forsaken country. And would do it again if called on to do so. And the outcome of my sacrifice is........end of line. but not the end of me. I feel today like striking out hurting those who have damaged me. I guess living as a good man that for sure is not acceptable. So I hold the pain and anger in and will continue doing so till I find another option.

PEACE!!!!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". Gandhi

correctamundo

Now two eyes for an eye is deterrence......

Jim,

The short answer is No.. they can't stop abusing. Now that relates to any Cluster B.. and someone who meets the diagnosis criteria.. aka..answers "yes" to a minimum of the questions..

With my NPD.. I wanted it to work out so bad.. we had a nice house.. two dogs.. a beautiful daughter.. and the legitimacy of being married.

In the end, for me, reality was waiting for me.. she wasn't going to get better.
NOTHING worked outside of her disease.. This is why vampires are D@MED to live with their cure for eternity..

Hope that helps.. I wish you the best..

A decent man is not a man who risks his life irrationally in a vain attempt to feel good about himself. This is the act of a person who doesn't know the self and doesn't love the true self.

Victims of abuse often adopt unreasonable altruistic behaviors. This doesn't mean the abused person is better then the rest of us who make a better more reasonable choice. All this means is we are most likely a person with a personality disorder caused by an abusive experience in life.

The solution as is always the case starts with us truly knowing our inner being.

The "good deed" binge is a common thing in people who lack self love. So too are unsuccessful relationships.

There just isn't enough said about the self awareness that is required to understand relationship issues.

There are few things wrong with your analysis.But please consider these points.

For every person who is diagnosed with a personality disorder, there are a dozen who are miss diagnosed.

For everyone tagged as incurable there are a dozen wrongly tagged. The true solutions just do not come from external focus.

The tags applied to mental illness patients are there for money solutions of the internal revenue department and drug companies.

On the practical side, if you feel anger at anything this partner does, you can be certain that the cause of the anger is inside your true self.

When you go within and truly know and love the self, anything she does will not make you angry. You will understand it and the inner peace that comes through self love and awareness will not fade away. This and only this is the platform for true recovery and appropriate decision making.

At first, for anyone who has adopted external focus and self denial, this advice may seem stupid and enraging. However it is true, it works and though it is not easy, it is the only way.

People do make it via the court room, rage after rage and with confrontations. However somewhere along the way, this approach forced them into their heart and forced them to study there a while.

I just believe it is possible to be aware of this avenue to peace right from the start. There is nothing magical about it. It is just the way humans are and it is how we grow.

Mirror---you speak a lot about "SELF". Your post is sounding a bit flowery to me. I am not convinced that you know exactly what you are talking about. You are trying to show Jim the light so he can love his girlfriend and daughter more fully---sounds very admirable. However--not sure what-- if any books you've been reading, or practical experiences you have had with counseling others. Excuse me, but this preoccupation with loving the "SELF"---sure its important--but yet---sounding just a bit unbalanced as you search for ideas that sound "sweet"; unless you are concluding that an expression of self-love for Jim would be to leave this women altogether---then yes--I do follow you!

Next

It is well known fact that personality disorders are lables used to fascilitate the financial aspects of drugs and therapy. The practical useful common link to all of them is self avoidance and denial.

A classic example handed down for decades by the AA orgaization is that "its a diseaes and you cant fix it without a higher power". This is denial. As luck has it some people find themselve and the true self while inwardly seeking this higher power and manage to quit drinking and grow up. Unfortunately most cling to the self denial that the cult insists on and never find the true self.

AA meetings are a den of anger as soon as any reference to the true self comes through. Try attending a meeting and tell them you know a guy who quit by his self. Try urging a narcissist to tap into their emotional self. Or try fixing your relationship without fixing your true self first. It aint gonna work

I dunno if alcoholism is an actual "disease" per say. I've stated as much in an AA meeting without problems.

What I do know is that I seem to have an allergic reaction to consuming alcohol. I tend to break out in insatiable thirst, handcuffs, and arrest warrants.

AA.....I had that experience briefly. They did not like it when I *******ized the serenity prayer......"courage to change the one I can and the wisdom to know that is me". I went to the one an hour rule and who wants to be in a bar more than a couple of hours?...even if the food is great! My old bar had some hot as hel Thai........I would challenge them to make it too hot as long as they could take it too. The owners were Thai. I will still stop in for a beer and a bowl of green curry.....hot, hot, hot. Some fool often wants to test me and the owners try to flag him off. A lot better than getting drunk as a slut.....I enjoy the challenge when it comes. A lot better for you too. Maybe a replacement addiction but wth.......a healthy one. Guys even bring in their hot concoctions to get my thoughts. And I can pick out the pure capscaisin cheats. I grow a Trinidad that is much hotter than ghost peppers.

I don't know about the whole disease thingy either. As for labels and acronyms I have to agree that as applied to any individual they tend to be meaningless-but as a group of folks who act a certain way towards those closest to them, there may be some meaning. I can see that. Much advice on this site seems to direct one inward-take care of urself first and stop trying to change the significant other. You know-the one that is ruining your life. We all have plenty of faults and the idea that we should fix all of that before deciding what to do with one who DOES constitute a clear and present danger to us seems to me to be ilconceived. At the end of the day to go through a complete whole body, holistic, find God type of analysis on ourselves seems way too much to take on when so many of us are or have been crippled in the first place by a toxic person. We just trusted and loved them and got hurt and defrauded. Irrespective of our upbringing, alcohol consumption etc., the mistake to trust and love can and will be made by anyone. I don't care who they are or if they have made peace with their God or had a great relationship with his/her family. To me it comes down to-you can't have what you want with this woman-for whatever the reason-she is not capable. Try hard to move on and I say do not try to tackle every psych issue you may think you have!

What an Idiot... Well said!

My friend, your statement is good but in it you clearly agree with me but can not see it. If you truely knew your inner being you would not fall for the charade

wow! thanks everyone. Ive been away from my computer for a week or so and i was really happy to log on and read alot of good advice. Mirror, I think you'r right on with just about everything youve said. I have come to the realization that this entire situation is all to do with me and me alone. I am currently financially strapped but after the holidays I am going to get into therapy and work on finding my true self. I need to figure out what it is about me that makes me attracted to a bpd and why ive put up with the crap that ive put up with over the past couple of years. I actually havnt been seeing much of her latley, we went out sunday to take our son to some holloween fair and literally 2 mins after she picked me up, we had an argument bc she ranted about my "behavior" latley and all thsi other crap. well, i told her to take me home and she refused, instead she pulled over and kicked me out of the car and made me walk home a mile down a busy highway LOL!!!! I had to laugh actually, even though it was a little humiliating, it was a beautiful day and i really dont mind walking...anyway, i havnt really spoken to her the past few days but we're going out with our son tonight to trick or treat. I dont plan on really spending any time alone with her though...basically I'm doing excactly what youve said Mirror, I'm trying to get into the right place to move on. I'm protecting myself and trying to be there for the kids...I wish to God that I could fix her because she is smokin hot and great in bed etc etc..im sure you guys know the story but i really dont enjoy her company, she's trashy and loud and sometimes just off the chain crazy, like sunday. I have to admit though, on one hand I'm planning my escape, on the other I'm wanting to stay...its tough because she has something that I find so attractive. I read on a website that men like us, who are attracted to BPDs usually have a "dead" feeling inside and our bpd women make us feel alive, even if it is a bad feeling or abuse...and that hit home with me, thats pretty much my story. I desperately need therapy to work on my "self" and find out what makes me tic and try to fix that "dead" feeling that i have sometimes. dont get me wrong, im basically a hppy go lucky person but deep down, I don't feel joy, i dont LOL like other people do. I just sort of exist..idk, its hard to explain but i have a feeling that some of you know what im talking about. ok, well thanks again everyone. and stop the bickering, this board is very helpful for someone like me who's going through the fire...lets try to keep this available and give advice, im sure there are others who need it desperatly. thanks again!

Jim, that is great to hear! And cause for celebration!

I've been were you are and therapy was amazing for me.. i learned about my codependance and the attraction between the selfish and the selfless..
Keep up the good fight :)
It really does make me happy to see men conquering this cycle.

Jim
I used to believe in AA a long time ago. However it is probably the worst thing she could do in the circumstances you describe. One point about AA is that the cult is a very attactive home for most sexual predators. If you wanted her to cheat on you that is the place to send her. If you want her to think that she can never fix her problem and that she needs some god to fix it the send her there. If you want her to treat you as the second choice in life send her there.

So often you get responses to the truth in one liners. " when you go somewhere take youself with you" now thats great advice. Trouble with 90 year old one liners is they are used to stop you from thinking. I heard a young man in a meeting in houston talking about how he quit drinking on his own and it was brilliant but they yelled him down with mindlessness of one liners

Rest assured if your partner was on the right track with efforts at home with you for making your relationship good and sustaining healthy mind and heart she will be told by AA not to do it. That is if she was ever allowed to explain it.

Dont under estimate the fact that AA is an attractive place for home wreckers and sexual imbeciles. It is a dangerous place for any young woman who hasnt had a drink in 4 years. Any woman for that matter

--troll--

Bird boy

If you follow the advice, get into your self and fix that first. Then you drive down town and you stop for people you admire. You are attracted to people you admire. You will look back at some of these good deeds you did in times past. There will be people you helped even though you knew they could do better and were using you. Still you turn up at the door with a box of goodies

But when you find the real you, you know where to spill the crumbs and you will be angry with no one

The answer to your question is simple. We picked them because we did not know our true selves. It is only through knowing your true self that you can exercise the wisdom. It is only through loving your true self that you can exercise the empathy required for such a decision.

People often unite in a joint venture of mutual self denial. This is like studying all the wrong subjects before the big exam. Of course they fail.

In the end the self denial lingers and it is strengthened by further focus on the bad aspects of the other person. This is supported by bad advice and, in some cases endless study of the failures of others. There is a constant talk about the personality disorders and how they cant do this and cant do that.

The reality is that peace comes only via self-awareness. Focus on the other person is no help at all and serves to increase the problem.

Peace comes with self awareness and brings with it spontaneous recognition of the charade of other people in all aspects of life. In such a moment we not only see clearly the appropriate action but also a genuine pity for others who are genuinely mal adapted. The illusion of love dis appears and is replaced with wisdom.

This advice is usually met with anger and rage. The people who come here seeking help are afraid of their true self. I am asking them to embrace it.

quoting you: "So,I think there's something there to work with".

As long as you feel/think this, you owe it to yourself to give her a chance! It sounds like you are basically not prepared to throw in the towel no matter how things are looking (so,she's been looking at dating sites and has a history of sleeping around). If you leave her now and are still thinking things could get better---there is a good chance that "regret" will only bring you right back to her. So, what have you accomplished then? Nothing! Stay with her until you are emotionally prepared to leave; meaning--you are completely satisfied with your decision and see absolutely no hope for change. You will know when "You" are emotionally prepared to "set-yourself-free": When you can walk away from her and not feel guilty about your decision. Your focus needs to be on what is making you feel happy--not what is making her feel happy. If giving her an opportunity to change makes you feel happy---then go with that. If leaving now is causing you sorrow--don't go that route. Be patient...the time is coming...be prepared...watch and wait. The best way to end this relationship and for you to be really happy is to let her be the one to break it off. It probably won't be long anyway. She doesn't appear to be in love with you...she is just afraid of losing control over you which is hammering at her ego. If you show the slightest weakness...she'll "walk". The problem is, you are displaying to much independence, and this scares her. The first time you need this woman to support something important to you,she just will not be unable to rise to the occasion. You are going to stay...I can tell from your post---you are not ready to be free--yet. However, while you are waiting for the appropriate opportunity to "break", protect yourself; be thinking about what you will do when she turns on you and leaves YOU---its coming! Plan your strategy on how you are going to be meeting other women; consider yourself to be free even now...flirt when the opportunity presents itself (just for practice to get back in the swing)....This woman is going to "walk", she's going to turn on you...its just a matter a time....use to sleep around....been looking at dating sites...its just a matter of time! The evidence is there. You are so close to the situation you are blinded; you are already standing in the forest but you cannot see the forest because there are so many of these trees in the way that are blocking your view!!!!

She can change with therapy

The thing you have to do is look at yourself first. It is only through knowing and loving yourself first can you understand the situation.

Focus on her issues is a temptation brought on by the self denial caused by your own issues. When you truly know and love yourself will you find the moment of peace that will empower your empathy to truly help and love this lady, and your children. it will also enable the wisdom to see it cant work and in a position of much reduced pain.

More then half the people who seek relationship help on line are doing so under the self denial curse. Some continue for many years and learn and grow absolute zero.

Such web sites are very attractive to the abuser also.

I have to add some important things here.
If she has been sober truly for 4 years, it is important that she get away from AA.
She needs to know that although AA will have believing that they are the reason she is sober, it is no so and in fact she did it. It was her and her alone. AA was a moments distraction while her true inner being took control and proves to us that she has what it takes.

AA teaches her that she can fix nothing and that her inner self is weak and sick and can achieve nothing without a higher power. This will strangle all efforts to grow and mature as a normal human being if she adopts that false archaic ideal.

I must say at this point that AA has many things that work directly against recovery of emotional issues for people like your wife.

The greatest assets you have in your life right now are your children. Babies stop people from drinking with much more purpose and honesty then a group of drunks discussing their worst behaviours and yelling down anyone who finds in their own soul the way to quit. It will make a huge difference if you can help her see how cool it is that she quit drinking and that it is her, not God or AA that keeps her sober. Just walk along any street any night and see AA people drunk.

Standing above all of these issues, is the fact that you now have two children. These are your responsibility. Put the cards on the table, as you have and suggest that without a true adoption of psychiatric assessment and treatment you will have to go. But you do have a responsibility to your wife, who may well be ill and a responsibility to the children.

Mirror... you seem to think the 12 steps are worthless and even a hinderance for self actualization...

We will have to agree to disagree on this.. I believe the program is a godsend and should be offered in high school..

Keep in mind.. that people that walk into AA used their best thinking to beat the problem.. only once they surrender.. and end the turmoil..
Once the turmoil is minimized then the self medication can be reduced or eliminated..

Show me the statistics that support AA.
Yes I am saying it is indeed a negative influence on emotional recovery of any origin.

I urge you to check out the stats on AA
Google a term like "aa failure"
AA the cult
AA and emotional recovery

In fact just google AA and you will see enough nightmares caused and sustained by the organization.

90 days 90 ways

So sorry you believe everything you read Mirror. I attend one AA meeting per week. A closed mens group to be specific. I see miracles and heartache each and every week. What I find most profound is the incredible brotherhood and compassion and a spirit of charity that is rarely found in the modern me me world. It is a described path of steps based on service and example to our fellow man regardless of race, creed, age or orientation. It could hardly be labeled a "cult". The only qualification is a desire to not drink for whatever reason.

My AA adviser celebrated 50 years sober two weeks ago. He is fun and lively and 92 years old and we love and celebrate him dearly. He and I play racket ball once a week.(I let him win occasionally) It is an opportunity to experience friendship and companionship of the highest order.

You can believe what you want Mirror but I believe the basic issue with dependency or addiction of any sort is based on spiritual deficit in one form or another. Who are we to judge how a man finds his way to understanding himself and exploring a deeper meaning in his life and quality to his relationships? Who are we to judge where and how a man finds companionship and acceptance?

What we can't do alone we can do together. Why stand apart?

The stats given to the year three medial students in Australia indicate that AA and other 12 step programs hinder recovery. In illicit drug addiction and alcohol addiction, over 90% of people who recover do so unassisted. The story of the 90 year old man who attends AA for 50 years, for me is a dismal failure in every respect. On the other hand, I took an alcoholic to AA thinking I would save his life. He said after the first meeting "what a load of ****". I was disappointed and agreed with the AA people that he would die. Well, he hasn,t had a drink in 20 years and lives a very successful life. He still insists AA is **** and he is absolutely right. In Australia AA is recognised as a place where soul destroyed people linger in a dillusional state of mind, like a teenage Mormon door knocker.

Mirror....it is easier to be mean an condescending to others then it is to be kind. Being kind to one another takes practice . With this in mind, I feel it necessary to hold back what I am actually thinking about your post (s). Attempting to put my best foot forward and be polite to you is very challenging for me---however, I know I can do it if I think this through slowly. Your post (s) sounds to me like you are attempting to impress others more than actually contribute anything worth while for the good of the community that frequents this web-site. To put this as nicely as possible, your posts just sound like you are "trying to hard" to show others you are intelligent (or not). (So, far I know I'M doing good here---I'm really holding back from what I really feel like saying---but I am trying!!!). I think your effort to carry on an intelligent conversation is commendable. But you are just trying so hard to impress everyone with this talk about "Self", but I am sensing you know very little about the "self" at all. Now, I made it all the way through the post without saying anything too negative. I did it all by my "self" without this cumbersome idea of God helping me to be kind. I am proud of my "self" and from this point on, I definitely plan to embrace your idea(s) that God is really not here to help me accomplish anything at all and in fact does not even exist. I wish you had come into my life at an earlier point and time so I would never have even wasted 1 minute of time ever calling upon god (lower case g). I took the liberty to just go ahead and label myself "Troll"--rather than PollYPureBread because ---why bother? I know I'll be slammed anyway, so now when you see TROLL--just think whatever you like!!!

How bout silly boy?

I do commend you with a well thought out post! Your grammatical syntax is superior to any other post I have encountered on this site. You studied for many years under your protégé--Mirror-- no doubt. The stimulus behind my attempt to maintain a sense of civility with Mirror was his willingness to put forth an effort to express himself in such a way that he at least provided the reader with something to work with---whether I agreed with him or not. Your post gives me something to work with also--although not quite as much. I'm trying to remember wally posts--but I just can't think of any right now. But your desire to chime into my conversation with Mirror must mean that you somehow enjoy a special friendship with him or you wouldn't be running to his defense like a mother would to protect her small child. I agree with you, my Troll post was somewhat silly. The joking along the way helped me to maintain a sense of humor throughout my post which enabled me to watch for insults escaping my mind which where popping up from time to time. Obviously I owe you an apology for not being more respectful to someone you look up to. The next time I address a post to Mirror, I will know that I better speak to him reverently because, I know that if I don't, I will have to contend with another one of your fearfully freighting posts. You last post: "how bout silly boy?" sent a sense of fear through me I have never experienced in my whole entire life, and never hope to again. I think the really freighting part was the way you spelled "bout". That's it!!! It was the way you spelled "bout". After I read your scary post, and the word "bout"---I new you were very intelligent and should be feared and avoided at all cost. Here's to hoping you are successful at being united to your inner "self". Have a pleasant evening, wally. I'm quite sure you will sleep soundly tonight just knowing that you have put the fear of god (sorry--this god thing is just an expression--no harm intended) into PollYPureBread.

night, night---I do hope "silly boy" here lived up to your expectations with another one of those silly posts!

....once again, a well thought out response from wally...Yes! your credentials WTF imply you have superior knowledge which enables you to have the ability to determine whether or not therapy is needed for someone--anyone for that matter.....not thinking BB would come to your rescue--so its not him---your name is not wally---because you keep trolling--So, who might I really be speaking with? Maybe its just "Self"....can't be god.....already determined he is non-existent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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