Hi guys - back again.

We've been living separately for almost a year now, and we are beginning to talk to each other; my wife is saying she wants to repairs things. I'm feeling very ambivalent about that, for obvious reasons, but at least we have the two places to live now, so there is less pressure and more room to manoeuvre.

Another topic: I was thoroughly worked over in 1992 by a woman I was sharing a house with in Boston. She sprang an accusation on me that I had been stealthily working up to asking her on a date (of all things!!). To cut this short, the thing that stuck with me, and still does, is the feeling of humiliation I have about the way I fell into the trap and started to take her seriously, and even defend myself. It turned into a major drama, with me as the villain of the piece. I've never managed to get rid of that anger and humiliation. It is still making me very miserable.

Can anyone help as to how I might approach this? Thanks.

Hey Brian, I did go back to your original post on the board to get a feel for what you are dealing with.

I think staying out of her way if she is a narcissist is the only way you'll survive not wounded severely. Are you currently happy? Will your happiness improve going backwards? Hollow people will drain you if you allow it. They will be satisfied but will you? Just a few questions I had I'll see what you make think...... peace

Mark

From your writing its clear she doesnt like you and wants to get rid of you so she is demonizing you. yes her object is to blame you for her getting tired of you and wanting you gone. No need to defend yourself she does not care about that. no its not your fault but she pretty much told you shes sick of you.

Brian,

Be very careful. This is most probably a hover.

Be very critical about her actions. High chance it will only last a couple of weeks before she will turn back to the old scheme of things.

If she did not change, there is no need for you to go back. In any case, keep your own place to stay, you'll probably need it sooner rather than later.

About your issue in the past: we would need more details, to get a better idea of what happened.

I've learned to look at regretful past actions as a bump on the learning path of life; it was a necessary annoyance to come to the insights that I have today. Makes it a lot easier to accept...

Jack

Thanks for the replies. Regarding my wife, I feel comfortable living separately, and will not give that up now. There would be no point. We own a property each, mortgage-free, both have jobs, no children to support, so there is no financial pressure for either of us to give that up. I look at it as the prospect of starting again, from a different base. I'll see how things develop, but thanks all for the cautions.

Jack: yes, it is definitely about my need to come face-to-face with some unpleasant facts and suck them up. I just haven't yet been able to do that. Instead, when I think of the way I was humiliated and used by that sick woman, I feel ashamed. She got the better of me, and used me as her whipping boy. I think that's the thing I have to accept.

More of the story: I went over to Boston in 1992, as a part of my PhD program, and studied at Tufts in Medford for a year. During the fall of '92 I lived in a house shared by 4 people, a room each. This woman was clearly emotionally damaged from the past, accusing her uncle of abusing her when she was fifteen, but not remembering anything about it. I too was in an emotionally fragile state, having come over to Boston in the first place in an attempt to save my 9-year live-in relationship with an American woman, who had left me months previously. So I was all over the place.

After a couple of months of what I felt to be a gentle development of a friendship, she suddenly sprang it on me, in front of another room-mate, that she had been taking notes in her diary about my behaviour, and although none of my acts taken individually could be regarded as evidence in itself, when all put together the list made up a conclusive case for my attempting to get her to go out on a date. (!!!) Ironically, the day she chose to dump this on me was the Tuesday after I had been on a weekend in the Cape with a new date.

Like a mug, I ended up defending myself, and got upset with her accusation, and then over the coming years I internalised it all, as if I were really a bad person. The fact is that I was emotionally needy at the time, and probably was a bit too 'out there' with my sexuality, but not with her in particular. I was struggling to feel OK about myself after the rejection by my American partner. So as is always the case, you can find a grain of truth in this room-mate's accusation. My American men-friends all thought she was attracted to me, and needed to break the deadlock (since I was dating another woman!).

I finally got out of that house, out of the frying pan, into the fire - a genuine full-blown, Irish NPD. I didn't know that at the time, but now it is obvious. So not a fun time.

Hello Brian,

Thank you for the details.

It will help you to dissect what has happened in the past, so you can understand the details and reasons behind it.

First of all : you have been abused by an abusive person. That in itself is reason enough to relieve you of any shame or guilt.

Abusive people do the abnormal, to get what they want. No person with a sane mind does what they do, and you can not expect yourself to "should have seen it coming".

About your defensiveness : it is only natural what you did.
She jumped on you with a surprise attack with accusations you would never expect. Everyone would get defensive under those circumstances.

The fact that it happened in front of another roommate, was another major factor here. It put your reputation at stake big time, making it all the more critical for you to quell the fire immediately (no time to think).

Looking back at the story, I would say she was indeed attracted to you. But, since you were dating another woman, she couldn't get with you. Or she might have just become impatient for you to make a move.

I do not see how it can be such a big issue for that woman that someone wants to go on a date with her in the first place. Normal people would be flattered by the idea alone, and not make a huge fuss about it. Normal people would ask the other person to sit down and have a talk in private to discuss the issue. She did not. Basically, she just wanted to make you feel bad, and prepared the perfect storm.

That is what abusers are always about : making you feel bad if you don't submit to their wishes. And she succeeded only because you were a normal person who never encountered such a character before.

Doesn't sound so bad for your side, I think...

Jack

Jack - thanks for that. You are kind and supportive, which I appreciate.

Interpreting the facts - yes. Let's see.

When I first moved in she made it very clear, in fact she wore an invisible tyre around her weighed-down neck, that she was suffering as a victim of former sexual abuse. So I was carefully vetted as a potential room-mate with the clear understanding that I needed to be aware of her damaged soul. Well, what can I say? Mine's damaged now, so it happens.

So while all seemed to be going well, and we were developing what I thought was a meaningful and mutually supportive friendship, she was writing it all down in her diary. Day by day she would be carefully noting down all my little actions and behaviours. Here's one example: One morning, when she was due to get to her weekly psychiatric appointment (yes, that's right), she emerged from the bathroom saying she had just had a dizzy spell, and had to sit down. Her psychiatrist was just a block away, so I offered to accompany her there to make sure she was OK. She said she was fine, but I went anyway. Subsequently this was cited as a significant sign that I was hitting on her. I knew it was outrageous, but at the same time she got me to feel I was in the wrong.

So how did she manage to achieve that? The main message from her was that I knew from the start that she was damaged, and needed careful treatment, so to flaunt my sexuality at her so irresponsibly was shameful and unforgivable. The story is a long one, and I've only just started on it, but I think this at least focuses on the message I internalised over the coming years.

That was the message, and also there was the experience of being pulled up like a morally incontinent child by its judgmental and all-knowing mother authority figure. That was the humiliation. I allowed it to happen. She has that manner about her when she wants to convey her point of view - she knows for sure she is right, she won't allow me to wriggle off the hook, and she has a smirk that says she can see that I am trying to. She's on YouTube, actually, but I imagine I will not be allowed to provide a link?

I'll just add one more detail. I got the impression that she might or might not have been attracted to me. What was actually going on was that she was waiting for me to make a move, so that she would have something really tangible to accuse me of. The game of 'Rapo', I believe it is called. When I wasn't doing enough to incriminate myself, and finally came back from the Cape telling everyone what a nice weekend I'd had, she couldn't wait any longer. My alleged interest in her was going to slip from her grasp. So she had to make her move before it did, and her story became hopelessly unbelievable. That's what i think, anyway. A room-mate who moved out just after I moved in said to me in confidence "You'll be the next one!"

I chuckled, and replied "Don't worry, I can look after myself." But no, I couldn't.

Hello Brian,

It sure sounds that you were not her first testing specimen.

I know the smirk, I've seen it. It's an expression of her playing a game with you, and you react exactly as she expects. Like a cat playing with a mouse.

One thing that's apparent is that she used one of the favorite BPD methods: you do not complain someone while he is doing something wrong, you only complain afterwards, when there is nothing he can do about it anymore but apologize. Have been through that one more than I would like to admit. Again, a normal person does not handle issues this way.

Another favorite way of BPD's is to warn another person beforehand that she's damaged. This is only so she can accuse you later of neglecting her warning. It's all about putting blame in your shoes, nothing else.

This is actually the core of all their behavior : finding ways to blame others, so the attention is diverted away from their own misbehavior.

Nothing you could do about it at the time, you just faced a pro on that level.

In the mean time, I learned that there are a few things you can do about all this:

- do not accept her point of view, ever. There is always a valid reason that you did what you did, she just does not want to see that. As a newbie, you get drawn straight into her frame of reality, since you lack experience of people talking b*ll*cks

- control your emotions, and stay cool. Getting upset is what they're aiming for, don't give them that satisfaction.

- think for a few seconds (even if she's screaming at you), create your own view of the issue, and state that in a cold and emotionless way.

- leave! After stating your point, do not hang around for more distortions of (her) reality. You've made your point, case closed.



If only they would have taught this stuff in school...




Jack

Well yes, she certainly waited until after the 'event', and warned me beforehand that she was damaged. So I fell into that one.

My problem is now - I feel ashamed that I allowed her to get the better of me.

Don't.

We've all been there.


It's not a shame to fall victim to an experienced abuser.


You learned from it, consider it a necessary evil towards wisdom.



Jack

Dupers delight and the joy of conning

http://datingasociopath.com/sociopath-character-traits/compulsive-lying/dupers-delight-and-the-joy-of-conning/

Jack is right there is nothing to feel ashamed about. You were deceived by a manipulative woman.
You will feel shame and regret. You will wonder what you could have done differently.
Your best bet is to just let her go. Find a nice woman who doesn't use people. Find some happiness.

I am still married to my narc, and it becomes more and more apparent to me everyday that she never loved me. She love bombed me to con me into having kids and building her a house. A house that I never wanted in a neighborhood that I never wanted to live in. Soon after the kids came around, she acted like I didn't matter at all. All I became to her was a paycheck. She would come right out and say "money is all that matters and you don't make enough."
The funny thing is, she denies ever saying that now.
Just cut your losses and move on.

No, she's nothing to do with me. This was a roommate from years ago.

I went out with my wife for the afternoon on Wednesday.

I am having trouble knowing what I feel and why. It still feels that she needs to be right about everything, and won't genuinely accept that it was her menopause, or whatever, that destroyed us. She left me, but wants to say I forced her to go. It's still crazy talk.

I guess I am hypersensitive to these things now.

Hello Brian,

A lot of women are like that, their main occupation in life is to push their frame of reality onto others (convincing them of their viewpoint). Normal people call it manipulation and blatant lying.

For abusive women this is the default behavior.

They don't own up to the results of their actions, and this is the way they sneak out of their responsibilities. So, they'll never submit to an objective view of reality, and they use every reason possible (existant or non-) to provide more backup for their choices.

When faced with this behavior, the only course of action you can take is to deny her view of reality, and stick to yours.

It's basically all a convincing game : if you stick to your guns long enough, someone will yield.

Don't be that someone; reality is on your side, she just doesn't want to believe it.

Jack.

Hi NLB,

Here's an interesting link for you :

http://www.girlschase.com/content/respect-relationship-where-it-comes-where-it-goes

Explains how men lose respect from their partners in a relationship.

I think this is a problem for most men, even the ones with a normal woman in their life.

Interesting read, to say the least.




Jack

Jack, the thing is, if you stand your ground the woman will say that you are mean, stingy, a jerk, and so forth. That will give them an excuse to act out or do whatever.
I think today's woman wants everything. They are like teenagers, with all due respect. They want what they want. They act like they want to act, yet they will not be held accountable for their actions.
I have seen websites devoted to men that recommend that they leave this country due to the state of the American Woman today.

Jack, I read the link. Very interesting stuff. So, I want to know, "Can you have a relationship in which you are in charge with a BPD Woman?"
Is it possible without exhausting yourself?

Coming from me, of all people, this is going to sound ridiculous, but I am actually coming around to thinking that the answer to your question is YES.

All you have to do is stop reacting.

I'll second that.


It's actually quite straightforward : what do BPD's use to control you?

Emotions

So, what do you need to do to stay out of her sphere of control?

Not have emotions


In other words : grow elephant skin.

One thing that helps me is to focus on my own world (stay in my own frame).

Another thing is, you can not have the fear of her leaving you. That fear will control you back into submission, and she knows it.

So, do not be afraid, you WILL be able to handle it in the end.


Other requirements : clear and enforced limits. The article on girlschase mentions some of them : no public humiliations, no mind-reading expectancies, etc.

Shari Schreiber also has a more general article on living with a BPD :
http://www.sharischreiber.com/dragon.html


So yes, it is possible. It's what I'm working on at the moment.

Jack

Brian and Jack, I am finding myself wanting to be genuinely loved. I would like to be greeted at the end of the day by a loving affectionate woman. I would like to be able to touch a woman without her getting angry.
My marriage has taken a toll on me to the point that I now have high blood pressure.
I'm just tired of this...

NLB,

You're tired because you keep following directions from someone who does not have your best interest at heart. She does not care about your need for support (only her own).

First step : stop following, and start taking care of yourself. Feel your needs, and decide what to do about it. Start recreating your self-respect, it will NOT come from her. Dare to say no to requests that you do not like. Dare to say you'll replace her with a 20-year younger specimen if she does not start respecting you. It's her f*ing JOB to respect you, and she's screwing up her duty big time. If she doesn't start to measure up to the NORMAL woman standard, out goes the old and in comes a new one.

No respect from her, no support from you. This world has 3.5 billion women that would love to be supported by you, keep that in mind; she IS very replaceable.



Jack

Something did occur to me last night, "What do I get out of this marriage?"
I realized that things won't change. If she would come back around I still would get very little out of the marriage. So, I felt something change inside of me. I felt like I no longer wanted her. It was a relief. I felt all of my depression leave me. It may just be a temporary feeling, but I also suspect that there was more to it than that.
I just want someone that I can do fun things with. I want someone that isn't going to say vulgar stuff to other guys.
I want a real woman, not an act.

Well that sounds like a valuable realisation. I hope it enables you to move on.

What's the situation with the kids?

To add more to this, I was diagnosed with high blood pressure a couple of weeks back. I'm only 46.
The HBP came about because I have had next to no human touch in my life from her going on 16 years. She got angry when I would touch her in bed. She got angry when I tried to hug her. It began to cause me anxiety.

I remember days when I felt stressed out from work and all I wanted was a little touch. A little massage. Or just some encouragement. None of it ever happened.

Why would I want to continue to live with that?

Exactly. People get entrenched in the way things are, but if they can overcome their fear of the unknown, the best thing is to move on.

What about the kids?

Kids are doing very well. One of my sons just got a great summer job and he is going to go study abroad in the fall.
The others are doing well in school and are very active.
I have two left at home, both are teens. I think I can manage for a little while longer. We have great times together!
In fact, we planted a garden together over the weekend. They are helping with watering it and so forth.

I started working out again this week and it has helped me a ton. I just get too much going on and neglect myself too much.

Great, you're starting to realize that this woman is not what you need. You know now that she is not good enough for you, and you will stop craving for her empathy. I've passed there too.

From here on, you will feel much more free; your feelings will not depend on her anymore, allowing you to feel good about yourself again. Your self-respect will start to return, and you will start rejecting her opinions. She will become an anonymous person living under the same roof; her words will become an opinion of a stranger, without any value: you live in reality and she doesn't.

At this point, you will have the choice : countering her words on the spot, or choosing the stealth way.
The first road will lead to extremely heated fights, as she will defend her opinions like a devil in a barrel of holy water; as you keep attacking her with your view on things (and her shortcomings), she will be pushed into the corner and become very aggressive. Only you can estimate how far she will go, and decide if this road is worth it.

I chose to go the stealth way, as mine proved that she has no limits. There have been minor physical fights in front of the kids already, and I want to save the children from that.

So I stopped caring about her feelings, and live with her like a neighbor under the same roof. Just plain cold facts and acts, no need to work on the relationship anymore. Only thing that binds us is the care of the children.

Result : a lot less stress, and much more ability to take control of my life.

This is how a man's life is supposed to be : calm and in control.

Occasionally she has a fit again; I just look straight into her eyes, and don't say a thing; after she has poured her vile into the family, and is convinced that she hammered me down into the pits, I just start to smile quietly...

This is where I am now.

Next phase will be to start pointing out her disrespect when requesting things from me. I've started doing that with the kids already in a gently way (they learned some bad ways from mommy), and they are coming around. She's next on the list.

Over time, I will criticize her for other aspects of her behavior, but one at a time. It's like raising and teaching another (stubborn) child.

I realize that I'm working on trying to keep her, but I do this because the children need their mother so much. If the situation was different, I would have left a looong time ago.

And as I'm "stuck" here, I try to take it from the positive side; I'm eager to learn about life, and personality disorders and man-woman relationships is something new that only recently starts to become (a bit) better understood. I consider it part of building up wisdom and life experience, and hands-on is always the best way.

Hope this helps to shed some light on your journey too.

You're not alone, my friend.


Jack

Wise words, Jack -

I'm tempted to say I agree with the direct-confrontation approach for NLB. Since it has been perfectly clear to him for a long time that there is no hope for the marriage, he doesn't have a lot to lose.

Of course, you are absolutely right; she will crank up the noise and the anger in response to not being bowed down to and obeyed. That's inevitable. But here is where the 'do not react' rule comes in. As long as NLB can stay calm and just state in a matter-of-fact way that he doesn't agree, or accept that he is obliged to do what she demands, etc. and then leave it at that, he can get through it.

It's all about reactions, and whether we can get through it without getting too upset.

Hello Brian,

You're definitely right about reactions, and everything depending on that.

To have the correct reaction though, you need to have the right frame (state of mind).
And I think it is there where we men are at fault: we yield too much into our women's frames.

Also, nobody told us that women are actually testing us all the time, to see where out limits are. And we, as "new" or "modern" men try to please our woman by giving in, showing that we are supportive and doing something extra for our mate. Big mistake...

Once you understand this dynamic, you realize it is time to stick to your own frame. Depending on how long you are in the relationship, it is more or less hard to do, though.

In NLB's situation, I'm guessing he reacted in just the way she wanted him to, early on in the relationship. As such, she has lost all respect for him (as she can control him in any way she wants). She then went for the things that are important to her (house, kids, money, etc), and just accepted him to stay with her as a provider.

I think he should come back to his own frame, and stick to that one ("No, you can not buy that, you're already burning all the money that I make. And from here on, we'll go minimalistic, to get our finances back on track").
I'm not in his shoes, and don't know how much he adheres to his own frame, but my guess is that he might have some work there. Him being co-dependent on her (looking for validation) does not make it any easier.

I have come to the conclusion about what is best for myself (the big aspects). If my wife accepts that, fine, we'll try to make it work. If not, she can take a hike; it's that simple.

No more yielding here...

Jack -

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with all of that. It's counter-intuitive to think our partner is testing our limits just as a child would, but it seems to explain what is going on. Even if she isn't doing it consciously, there is bound to be a natural process of testing there. The only logical position to adopt, and this goes for her too, is to set and stick to our personal boundaries. That's the only way two people can function together.

I also agree that many men in this situation have dropped their boundaries, as James says in his videos. We are in this mess in the first place because we are not naturally good at standing up to a narcissist or controller. We find it hard to believe in our own right to fix our limits. But that is, again, what we must do in order to sustain an adult relationship. If that firm stand tips her over the edge, there is actually nothing we can do in the end to rescue it. A truly dysfunctional narcissist or controller might be simply incapable of settling for a stable situation. Not enough supply. But if we were to soften up and start giving in to her more, that wouldn't satisfy her either.

Now that my wife and I are living separately, we are in a much better position to feel our way around in the marriage and see what seems comfortable and what not. Being apart takes a lot of the pressure off both of us. Money, for example, is no longer an issue. Whereas she used to flare up the moment we started to discuss money management, now she has her pile and I have mine, and we don't interfere with each other's. Housework is another thing. If she doesn't like the way I keep my house, she will be gently invited not to come here any more. If we still want to stay connected, we can do so elsewhere. Having said that, though, I do still have to say that she and I differ quite radically in our need to control the other. I don't care how she keeps her home, or what she wears, but she does with me. That is something that will probably at least partially determine where we go from here.

Brian, it seems to me like it is still all about her, as it is with many women. The way you dress, keep your house, your car, your kids are all a reflection of how other people perceive her. I know, I went through that with my wife of 27 years, which ended with her divorcing me. She wanted me to tell her to stop and beg for forgiveness. (I didn't do anything btw)

Much like you, we still live together (for now until our daughter graduates high school this spring, God willing). Separate bedrooms, finances, likes and dislikes. We split the rent and other bills. If she overdraws her account, well that's too bad for her. I don't pick up the slack for her mistakes and she doesn't for mine. She has accepted that I will not remarry her, but I think she may believe this unmarried co-habitation thing will go on.

As you and Jack were saying, I had disconnected the emotional hose to her and feel more at peace. I am not sure how you have love without emotion, but I guess that means that I just dont love her, as I am more indifferent.

Jack, in reference to "frame", have you been reading The Rational Male?

Hi Soldier,

Yes, I've read a few pieces on there.

Most of my frame-knowledge comes for the girlschase site, though. It's basically a site to learn how to bed women, but it also has good advice on how to keep a woman in a relationship that's healthy for you (the man).

My idea now is that a man's mental frame is what attracts women, but we men lose focus all the time. And that's when the problems start...

Even when meeting an abusive woman, we often get out of our frame and let things happen, instead of focusing on ourselves and just throwing her out immediately.


Jack

Hi Soldier -

No, we don't live together any more. She has her own flat.

Yes, my wife too made it pretty obvious when she was moving out that she was expecting me to beg her to stay, but I didn't. So she shot herself in the foot. Now she tried suggesting that it was my fault that she left, because I made no attempt to stop her! She argues that the reason why I didn't try to stop her was because I couldn't wait to get rid of her to replace her with another woman!

I just laughed at her.

Things are easier to manage now that we live separately. If she starts acting up at any point, I can just gently remind her that this was one of the reasons why we had to live separately, and wasn't it a good thing we did?!

Hello Brian,

Great to hear the way you handle her these days.

Amazing, isn't it, how far they want to push things. Mine filed for divorce, and later when I prepared the papers, she came back crying. A lot of it is just bluf poker; you've proven before that you won't go that far, and she trusts that you will stop in front of the gate again. What she doesn't realize is that your motivations have changed, and that the gate now harbors the way to freedom...

They basically shoot themselves in the foot, like you say. Before she filed I was afraid of divorce, now it has become a very attractive solution.

Can someone explain to them that they're basically idiots digging their own graves?



Jack

This is what I say: "I miss you baby......but my aim is getting better"

Does she understand it?

She is not able to understand anything been NC for 6 months and staying that way

OMG, that's funny Mark. One click left, two clicks down. That ought to do it.

I'm a combat vet my aim is still there

Rational Male is also, as you know a sort of PUA site, but it also has some remarkable information about women that seems to make perfect sense. The Preventative Medicine series was enlightening. I'd urge all to read it.

Jack,

I thought mine was bluffing too. She had threatened divorce so many times before, I just ignored it. She filed, I ignored. The summons came, I ignored. She wanted to talk (me to beg), I ignored. Didn't get a lawyer, cuz I firmly believed that she would not go through with it. But she did. She paid for the whole thing. No alimony from me. A month or so of paltry child support for my daughter who was about to turn 18.

I stayed in the house, she became angry with me saying it was MY divorce, and that I used her lawyer to divorce me. Yeah, you read that right. She wanted to immediately remarry. I said, no way. I wont let you take another shot at me. Her hamster continues to spin. Spin, hamster spin! HAhahahahah!

Yeah, she did not really want a divorce (why would she want to remarry otherwise?), but wanted to teach you a lesson. That backfired, didn't it?

It is things like this that makes me wonder if women even have a brain. We men know we might not get a second chance, so we won't go there; they seem to expect that there's always another backup waiting...

And then turning reality totally around, my god; the stories that I've heard... It's basically a pittyful way of crawling back while trying not to lose face.

Once you devalue them its up up and away. They spin like a top when they lose their primary source of supply (control). When people, I use the term lightly find there isn't anyone hoovering over them they blow up or implode. Don't forget you guys that these woman are not the least bit interested in your needs.....end of line

Mark

Just going back to one of my original themes, though - the humiliation, shame, anger, etc we can experience for years after being 'punked out' by these abusive people. What is the sane way to manage our thinking on this?

I am thinking that perhaps we should focus on the human traits that make us punkable. They would be caring, empathy, a desire to do good, to be good, maybe a fragile sense of self, a willingness to accept others' opinions about us, etc. We get bullied and humiliated because bullies dangle the bait and we take it. So their only 'virtue', for want of a better word, is that they have learned how to hook normal, caring, conscientious people with their bait. I guess that's a strong point, but is it worth anything?

On the other hand, we get hooked precisely because we are normal, sensitive and caring people. To get hooked is to demonstrate that we have those positive traits.

I'm just trying to find a way through this so that I can eventually shake off the negative feelings I have about allowing myself to get punked out.

Brian, you just have to resolve to work on yourself. You cant change these people and trying to seek their approval is a losing game. You should know this by now. Be selfish with your time. I am not saying you should not be giving, but when you give you should expect nothing in return. You give out of the abundance of your own heart.

That guy who was punked, doesn't exist anymore. Bury him and resolve to be a different man. A wiser man.

Brian,

Yes, we are normal caring people, and they are abusing that.
It'll help to regard it as this : we are givers, while they are only takers.

Isn't it always like that : normal people getting abused by the abnormal ones...
It's just because we are normal and prepared to give, that the others find ways to abuse us.

There's no shame in falling victim. They've just used a tactic on you that you were not aware of, and had no defense for. That does not make you culpable in any way; they are the ones that went for the abuse, not you.

You've been one of the victims, and you've worked your way out of it. Time to look back, learn from it, and move on.

With your new guards up...



Jack

Well, back again -

I just wanted to check in and get a reality check. Do please bear in mind that I am 63 yo and have been married for 13 years. My wife is of Ukrainian stock, and carries all the implied values and traditions with her.

For the past several months we have been meeting up for outings, afternoons together in the garden, cooking lunch, etc., and things have been smooth and reasonable, albeit a little guarded. We have shared the explicit desire to repair things.

But don't get excited.

This evening, after seeing her twice this week already, I went over to her flat with some CDs I'd made for her. In fact, I've been doing a lot on the computer support scene for her, and willingly. But within two minutes her focus was inexorably drawn to my T-shirt, which was old and scruffy.

"You know that I am irritated when you don't dress smartly"
"So I feel that you are trying to irritate me."
"You are trying to train me like a dog" (to accept whatever I dish out?)

I replied that she was trying to train me to dress to her expectations, but I'm afraid I had to walk out in disgust.

Help, please! Reality checks warmly invited!

James has a video "Stop second guessing your self"

Please see that video.and then see it again.And then see it again.

Hello Brian,

Welcome back.


Just to check : what is her age?

My wife has these 180 degree turnarounds when she's PMS-ing.

2 days before I'm the greatest guy on the planet
1 day before I'm the greatest piece of dirt on the planet

That, or she might start to lose patience. The attraction show is dragging on, and she starts to get frustrated about when you will finally bite.

Keep it going as is, don't commit to anything. If it's the first reason, it will soon be over. If it's the second, it will get worse from here on.

Jack

Jack - I did reply earlier, but now I can't see my reply. Not sure what happened there.

Anyway, yes, she is in year four of her menopause.

I've just been reflecting on the significance of the 'training like a dog' idea:

When she comes up with an obvious reversal like that (she is obviously trying to get me to submit to her dress expectations, and I am not conforming to her satisfaction), it seems like crazy talk to say that I am trying to train her. It's the other way round.

But when James is talking about the woman brainwashing her man to accept her appalling behaviour, the reversal seems right.

What's the essential difference?