Hi all,

I had a lightbulb moment tonight.

I was woken by my 7-year old daughter at 2 am, because of fear of the dark. I brought her back to her bed and she fell asleep while I was at her bedside, but she stood at my bed again 30 minutes later, because of a nightmare.

I let her sleep with me, and she fell asleep again soon.

This made me think.

She has a nervous twitch all the time, and is often "strong willed".

She also often gets bullied by my wife, because she does not follow orders immediately.

My lightbulb was that it is my role to provide this child with a secure and simple environment to grow up in, and that I have been doing exactly the opposite (racing to school & after-school activities, scheduling way too little time for everything, creating lots of stress, etc.) Most of it from just following my wife's principles & orders.

And I've decided to be a better dad from here on.

I let her sleep in my bed for the rest of the night (=forbidden by my wife), and she woke up easily and relaxed this morning. A total turnaround from the usual problems she has to get out of bed.

Also, when preparing for school, I stayed relaxed and left out the usual hurrying. And she was ready in a jiffy, as opposed to usually refusing to do anything.

From here on, I pledge to make this girl's life simple and relaxed. I regard it as my duty to turn her environment into a likeable one, and try harder to understand her needs. I will also protect her from the negative energy her mother throws at her, and defend her from further evil.

I feel stupid for not recognizing this earlier on, but will nevertheless do my utmost to correct the mistake I have made.

On a more general note: I believe that the role of men in general IS actually to make life simple and relaxed. From my own experience, a lot of women are masters in making everything complicated and stressful (there are exceptions, of course, but not a lot), and that is mainly because they involve FEELINGS in everything, instead of just the bare facts. And we all know how feelings can clear up the fog...

I know what I will turn my life into from here on, some of you might wanna do the same.


Jack

Jack,

What you described was how my father behaved when i was a child growing up with a uBPD mother< (a stress nightmare).

He was my balance - my rock. I know that's a cliché but maybe because of the extremes of my mother ...very true and whats more necessary.

My father spent his whole sad life between my mother and me - protecting me from her excesses and he did that for love and nothing else. I didn't even know it. It's taken me 50 odd years and his death for me to see it - and that makes me very sad, because i couldn't thank him.

Now you know... just keep doing it.

Men are the balance - the logic to balance the emotion. In a normal relationship this is indeed a balance, one person isn't dominant. In a PDI relationship ......that's different.

Hello New,

Thank you for the reminder, and sorry to hear about your dad.

I'm sure he knew you would appreciate it after finding out, and was probably proud he could guide you.

I'll call my father this evening, to thank him for all he's done. His presence has shaped me into the person I am today; and that deserves an honest "Thank you".


Jack

you may have noticed, this post hit a real nerve. One of the many things that occurred to me after reading Jacks wonderful heart warming post for the umpteenth time was...

Did my mothers excesses cause me to shield my emotions growing up? So much so they just got forgotten?

As a child, teen, adult...I never could understand why people got so "emotional" over things like a football team or music or artist. The only thing that fired me in the slightest was science and aircraft - I was most emotionally comfortable in solitude, walking the woods or making model aircraft; (away from the emotional noise?). True joy and poetry to my soul is single crew pilot "touching the face of God"...(that's the closest I get to religion - no offence to anyone's beliefs).

Is that why I (and I'm using this word carefully) "need" a PDI in my life? - is her excesses of emotion to counter my almost total inability to show mine?

Is that why the good times - high emotion is such a counter to me and "feels" so right? - Anyone else ever said "she MAKES me happy"...??? even though its always at a high impact emotional price when it's payback time.

Is it that my conditioning during my upbringing taught me that PDI's are somehow necessary in my life? Because I've sure had my share of them.

My father taught me how to cope with these witches by shutting down...don't show it.... don't let them see you upset. COPE! not fight. But is it a case of their black to my white?

Have I got this all wrong?????? They say nature abhors a vacuum - is a PDI the fill to my emotional vacuum?

FFS.....

Thanks Jack for a wonderful post - but now I need a beer and a lie down in a dark room and whale song.

Very thoughtful thread.

TME, you are exactly right. I grew up with a narcissist dad and a bpd mom. It was horrible. I was never allowed to express myself. I was never allowed to have any wants and desires.
I learned to shut everything down.

Then, I met my future wife. She was so lively and dramatic. I was instantly intrigued. Eventually it exhausted me. But, she countered my inability to express myself. She expressed herself and I allowed her to project what she wanted onto me. Just like my parents.

A guy I Knew in high school once told me that I was "docile" because I didn't get angry over something minor. I have since realized that he was right.

So, I need to learn what my emotions are, besides depression. We all need to learn what makes us tick.

Oh, and I used my ability to repress my emotions to throw myself into work. I bottled up what I wanted and used myself as a tool to satisfy my wife.

Hi guys,

Glad you get what I'm trying to say.

Some of my thoughts :

New : I was like you as a child : avoiding emotions at all cost, and feeling at ease in solitude. Made model airplanes too...

And I know now why : the regular emotional explosions from mom lead to huge amounts of frustration and stress. And a person needs to recover from stress. Hence the search for solitude : it is a survival and coping mechanism we all have inside us. Over time, I naturally regarded emotions as something very negative, and to be avoided whenever possible. Solitude and quietness meant peace and relaxation to me. It became more than a recovery principle, it became one of my life principles.

And I became an extremely shy person, because to me other people always meant trouble of some kind, and they broke my constant search for peace.

"Thanks", mom...

My dad never rebutted my mom, because she had no limits. He decided to stay with her for the kids, and usually just walked away from her when she was charging again. I always felt sorry for dad, and started hating mom for it.

And here it gets interesting : children will always try to copy the behavior of their parents later on in life. As such, I followed my dad's example when my wife started acting out; and that made things worse in the long run of course (no enforced limits).

New, to answer your question : no, you do not need a PDI to fill your emotional "void". You are the product of your upbringing, and your emotional "void" is just your lack of experience with your own emotions. There is no void, you just never jumped into the pool of feelings. You have emotions like any other person, but you got scared by the way your threatening mother expressed hers.
Emotional intelligence is part of everyone's development as a child, but some of us are encouraged to discover it, others are scared away from it.

And another strong factor : you chose a bpd partner, because it immediately felt familiar to you (from your childhood situation). And familiarity is a strong incentive when choosing a partner.

That, and the incentive of finding an "expert" in emotional expression, so you could finally be guided in the discovery of your own emotional side. Unfortunately, the "expert" did not have that in mind...

I wish I would have known a long time ago what I know now, it would have made my life quite different. But I'm starting to get there, better late than never...

Hope it helps you guys understand a bit more about your journeys too. Glad to discuss.



Jack

Hi Jack,

Thanks for your (good) kind comments. I believe (now) that you're right, in my darkest moment I resorted to the foundational "need" for a familial person to sooth my wounded emotions in the way that best suited my need. Sad then it was a PDI (I echo that Thanks Mum...)

Like you my father showed me how to walk away, not get angry, my DNA to not hurt, remained intact even when under emotional attack from my mother or any other BPD. So that's what I've always done.

I've never liked feelings - they actually cause a physical reaction in me, that "lump" in my chest even at 55. Knowing that there is an emotional problem in me was/is the first steps to my engineers logical brain working things out.

It's funny you credit my "expert" guide, I have said for many years I had to know narc the younger, to know narc the senor - to know myself. So guide is an excellent analogy.

I am a work in progress. And yes - I wish I'd known sooner.

we grow....

Hi New,

Another point you need to know :

That lump in your chest is actually your anxiousness when getting near any feelings. You have been denied the right to feel your own feelings by your mother. Parents often do this to their children, because there is always more "important" business with higher priority to take care of. And this is the wrong way, because feelings need to be accepted before they can be understood.
I've read in some parenting books that any feeling is allowed in a child, it is only the behavior that results from those feelings that sometimes needs correction.
You've had your feelings denied repeatedly, and your natural self revolts against that by becoming anxious. Over time, and with your mother's scary examples, you accepted that feelings were not for you. As such, you've denied your own feelings all of your life, keeping you in that anxiousness whenever feelings were involved.

I can tell you this : IT IS OK to feel anything you feel, it is ALLOWED and even LOGICAL.

Up till now, you just did not understand how it all works.

Now the logical thing to do at this point in time is to feel understanding for yourself, have a beer lying down in a dark room with a whale song, and feel peaceful. You're quite a normal person after all...


Jack

Hi guys,


Another update.

Yesterday we went to the zoo, and during lunch on an open terras, my wife was chewing on my younger daughter's head for doing something she didn't like.

My wife is on her period, so things got (even) more extreme than usual.

I decided to take over the load of the aggression, to save my kid the extreme frustration. So I looked at my wife silently, with eyes that would freeze fire. She noticed and immediately looked back, while her barn started firing shells my way (didn't even hear what it was, all hatches were locked tight). After she unloaded all her ammo, she slowly turned her head sideways while keeping me locked in her sight, for after-effect.

I did the same, but I slowly turned my head down, while keeping the target radar locked at the objective. It is the look of an angry child that is not allowed to express its frustration (head deep down, eyes touching eyebrows). I did this, until I reached the down-stop of the turret.

For me, it was the surrogate for my daughter's frustration shown back to her. As she does not have the courage to invalidate mom's over-the-top behavior, I did it in her place.

It must have been a surprise to her, or a funny sight, as my wife could not suppress a smile.

Then she scrambled back to dominance, and stated that she had reached her limit. She threatened to throw a cup of water over me in plain public if there would be anything further from me that she would consider incorrect (among other things, didn't hear all).

So I left it at that. We got up, and had a somewhat normal visit in the zoo.

Mission accomplished, without spending a single word...



Jack

This is all so familiar, When I am able to be home our mornings go so smooth. He helps make breakfast, he gets dressed quickly, we are out the door with smiles on our faces. I remember I got in "trouble" for cheering one morning for each bite he took. My wife said "we don't do that," well I guess we do now. Thanks for the post it helps.

Hi,

Still learning here.

Yesterday I had quite a conflict with the youngest daughter where she had a tantrum for me not telling her the solution to her homework right away. She stormed out of the room throwing things around; after following her, validating and calming her down a bit, she was still mad and told me to sit in the corner for 5 minutes. After which we went back to the homework...

What I've noticed is that things got settled in a peaceful way in the end. Before, those situations would always end in huge frustration, as my wife stepped in and forced her "solution" on everyone.
Since I started understanding the underlying emotional causes for people's behavior, and became more assertive in dialogues, I notice most conflicts get solved in a peaceful way; it is now usually me who has the last word. Also, nobody leaves in frustration anymore.

Sure, my wife still tries to impose if something drags on, but I've learned to ignore that, and just continue my way. The clue is to not let my wife's statements take over a situation, by hijacking the argument :

Wife : Stop creating problems, and finish your homework!.
Me : It's ok, let's just continue with the homework, shall we?.

Speed is of the essence, but this way, the children do not enter my wife's frame, and follow mine instead. Basically I provide them with an alternative option , and it is always the more respectful one. Not difficult to chose...

Sure, my wife notices that she's getting hijacked, but also that things get solved much more peaceful. And that's the main goal in the end.


It's all part of keeping your cool, and it might help some of you out there.

Jack

Here's an update on this topic.

Things are improving steadily on the home-front.

I realize now that an important part is that I learned to control my thoughts, and thus my emotions. No more following and being disturbed by whatever pops into my mind at the moment, but actively forcing thoughts out of my mind, and relaxing instantly. This site helped me a lot here : http://www.how-to-meditate.org/why-learn-to-meditate.htm/

Next step was to learn to recognize when the brain-lizard (instinct, habits, etc) was pushing it too far again, and then applying the previous process.

Result : in the past month, I have never raised my voice at home anymore, even not after extreme and repeated bullying by my wife.

Conflicts between the children now get solved in a couple minutes, by sitting them down and reassuring them I will hear both sides of the story. Surprisingly, during the listening phase things often get defused already, and they usually join in play again even before I can make up my mind on the issue. I think the most important part is that they know someone will listen respectfully, without judgment, and validate & accept their ideas.

Less trouble at home, makes it easier for me to stay relaxed. Quite the positive evolution...


Improving myself was just a necessary step of the process...


Jack

Jack

Kuddos brother.You are doing a great work.Being there for and spending time with your daughter.

An important and even vital key for fathers and parents everywhere.


I lament and im agonizing now that due to a variety of factors,including some of my own choices i didnt spend more time with my son.
Because now and in recent years he has been exhibiting increasing narcissistic tendency's and behaviors very similar to his mother ,including low empathy manipulation.
17 years old.

Im very heart broken.For the rest of my life i will wonder if ...

Men choose very carefully the woman you have children with and the children you have cherish them.

The children you have,love them ,hug them,kiss them,spend time with them,do things with them.

Thank you, Mark, I appreciate it.

As for yourself, all is not lost.

I think a good way to go about this is to tell your son what you just told us: that you realize that you made a big mistake, and regret it a lot. It takes guts to admit your own mistakes, and your son will appreciate that. Sure, he will be quite upset for some time, but that is expected and understandable. Just show him you understand his reaction, and he will calm down (remember, this is how empathy works).

You're also showing him how a real man comes up for his own shortcomings, and that a person does not have to be perfect, and that that is all right. Show him that you are a person with a weakness, it will take a lot of pressure off his shoulders to be perfect as well (= a narcissist's core image).

In my view, narcissists grow from a lack of empathy. You said your son is on the road to a narcissist's life. But from what it sounds, it is still not too late : he is 17, on the cusp of adulthood, and has formed a base personality based on his own life experiences. A past lack of empathy drives him towards narcissistic behavior. So the thing to do, is to shower him with empathy. Talk to him, show him you understand his reactions, all of them, and that they are quite normal given the circumstances. Listen to his issues and problems, and tell him you understand his feelings. That is what empathy is all about.

Doing this, you will reverse the trend he is on, and get him away from the trap he was going towards.

And my final argument : as a token that it is possible to undo and counter the effects of your wife's behavior on your son: it is what I am doing every single day.
And to good effect, it seems.

Jack