Hi all,

I think I hit a turning point in my relationship with my wife, and I need to go over this to recap.

I had a discussion with her a few days ago, why we never have (and will have) sex anymore.

And it turned out "because she feels bad" about me, not supportive of her etc. Going further into the discussion, it came out that all of her behavior is based on her feeling this or that way.

About all of her feelings are based on assumptions ("he doesn't support my feelings because he is a bad person", etc).

And one by one, those assumptions are all incorrect (I do not support her feelings anymore because of the emotional abuse I receive from her).

A few days before, I had seen this site : http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-emotional-vulnerability-of-borderline-personality-disorder/0009521

Thinking over her answers during the next night, it hit me: not only is this person incapable of controlling her feelings (I already knew that), she is actually the slave of her feelings : her feelings control her totally, and the only thing she can do is follow what they create into her mind; she is in fact the prisoner of her own emotions. Like the lizard in her brain has absolute power, and makes sure it stays that way.

And that hit me hard : she is actually not willingly treating me this way, but she is driven by her own emotions to do these things. Being a woman, it makes her all the more incapable to resist and control those emotions.

I had to grind over this one for a few hours at 4 am...

Did I have it all wrong? Her history definitely acknowledges that she never had any emotion-coaching during childhood, repriving her of the ability to control her emotions during the rest of her life. And the issues in life that result from that inability must be very frustrating to her; leading to a lot of frustration and a very short fuse...

So basically I am living with an emotionally uneducated person, who's trying to cope with life while being guided only by emotions...

Darn...

If only I had known earlier...

Yesterday, I upped the supportive interaction, and she became a totally different person. I kept focused on the tasks to be done instead of her reactions, and it all went so smooth. In the evening, while I was rubbing her feet, she was looking at some website, and she even laughed wholeheartedly at some joke; it was a long time ago since I heard that coming from her...

And she even suggested sex afterwards...

Wow...

So that's the current status : she's the ship, and I'm the captain. I need to keep my cool under all circumstances, but then I can steer her anywhere I want...

Guess I don't have to say this, but I feel so relieved and powerful now. Totally the opposite of a couple days back; I'm in charge of my life again, as well as the life of my closest ones. Guess that's where I should have been all along...

Knowledge indeed brings power...



Jack

Keep us updated on how this is going.

I have found that it is exhausting trying to be the captain of a ship that is lost at sea and subject to all the chaos out there.
You could be perfect to her, yet, if she has a couple of negative outside influences trying to turn her against you, you will find yourself at her mercy.

Stay strong and keep us informed!
Good luck.

Don't worry, I'll report on the progress.

For external influences, my wife always compares me to other husbands who "do more" for their families than me. My response : "they do not get disrespected and abused the way I do, they do not suffer as much as I do, so it's unfair of you to expect me to be as motivated and do as much as them".

That is after I told her that every man needs respect to become a great man, and that she has the power to get my best side out, but that she just doesn't know how.

It's important you stick to this point, because it is the reality : she has to get the best out of you, because a man will not become great without motivation. And every man's primary motivation in a relationship is respect...

So basically, everything she's complaining about, exists because of her own actions...

Interesting turn of perspective, isn't it?


Jack

I agree Jack. I was continually disrespected in my marriage. My ex would make comparisons about so-in-so's husband does this and that. This only serves to make you feel like you are ultimately unworthy or not even a man for having not provided for her wants (not needs). She would mention how some guy flirts with her and she likes the attention, also saying that I have nothing to worry about if I get rankled. I know a shot over the bow when I see one.

So you give and give and what do you get. Nothing or more disrespect.

On a side note: there was an intersting article in the Wall Street Journal yesterday about relational aggression among kindergartners. It is simply withholding freindship as a weapon. Guess which sex is adept at this beginning at age 2 1/2? It also says that it peaks in middle school, but because our little darlings were probably damaged at middle school age, they remain stuck there emotionally. They are trying to teach these young kids empathy. I thinks its a noble program, but probably wont work on the emotionally damaged.

Fair enough, I meant that it is not part of the growing up process, but comes after reaching the adult stage, when resources are what she needs.

As DNA passes on behavior, it is very normal that this behavior gets passed on too.

As an addition, I read another interesting perspective on some website earlier this week : that BPD's are actually handling their emotional distress, but they only handle it in a way that has immediate results, with no regard for the long term.
As they are already in distress most all of the time, they do not consider long-term solutions; they just need to get the current issue off the table.

For example: if she feels angry, she will search and find something to lash out about at you. Immediate result : she gets rid of her anger, solving her direct issue. Ignored long term result : relationship damage.

Had a similar issue with the youngest daughter yesterday. I'm afraid she is going down the same path, as she shows the same short-term over-emotional reactions. Probably learned the behavior from my wife, plus the stress of the bullying; it's gonna take a lot of patience to tackle and correct that behavior, but I consider it my duty as a dad.

Taking on 2 emotionally distressed individuals at once, probably gonna need some support here...


Jack

Ok, back to square 1.

This morning she had a huge fit about me letting our daughter sleep with me.
Basically that I ignored her request to let the girl sleep in her own bed. That our daughter was already awake at 5, didn't sleep enough and it hurt her as a mother to see that. And why I never listen to her.

When I didn't agree to her arguments (daughter only woke up the second time she came in to complain), and made it clear that her behavior was unacceptable, she went berserk and beat the crap out of me with some soft slipper. All in front of the kids.

The slipper didn't hurt, my ego did though, but I can handle that.

When she saw that I was still standing there proud and calm, she resorted to threatening : words like "kill you" and "I'll take a knife if you don't..." were the defaults coming from her mouth now.

By this time the children were begging me to comply, and it ended in her forcing me to apologize to her, and me promising to her god that I would not make her angry anymore or make her shout anymore for the rest of my life, no matter if she's right or wrong. If I would, I would give up 1 day of my life.

Just goes to show what her real intentions are. She needs someone to always agree to her, even if she's blatantly wrong, and she finds no other way to get that than threatening me in front of the children (= abuse of me and the children too).

I just did it, to calm down the situation, as the children were already panicking, and she proved again she has no limits.

So much for the turnaround.

But I'm guessing her period is up soon, so it is to be expected. Back on the monthly roller coaster...

At the event itself I was a bit tense (you never know what she might do next), but now afterwards it is becoming quite clear where she's coming from. Makes it a lot easier to understand and accept the situation.

And prepare...


Jack

I'm sorry to hear about what happened Jack.
They are all about control and doing whatever they please without consequences. They are children in adult bodies.
They lure us back in with good behavior, then, when the comfort zone is re-established, their inner demon comes back out.

I don't know if anyone can have a win-win outcome being involved with them.

How many bpd's does it take to screw in a light bulb? Just one but you have to wait while the world revolves around her. But remember......it is still your fault. There is something to be said for beating a hasty retreat.

Hi NLB,

You're right on the spot with that: they are children's minds in adult bodies.

After this event, I've turned back to being the empathic understanding assistant. It is possible to do this, but only if you can take distance from anything she says; a skill anyone can learn, but it takes time and dedication.

One mistake I made at that event, was judging her immediately. And that's why she exploded; I rebutted her view for the millionth time, and she couldn't take it any longer.

I'm paying attention to leaving out the judgments, and instead just acknowledging her statements (called "validation" in the DBT manual). She immediately calms down after that, making me relax too, instead of anxious. And the fog and personal attacks disappear...

It's like being in a totally different dimension in our relationship.

There has even been a small glimpse of intimacy.

On another note : recently she messed up some after-school registration for the kids big time. She had to apologize to an enraged teacher over the phone, while I was sitting next to her. And I was surprised about the reasons she mentioned : that she had personality issues that need to be worked on; that she as a woman needs to learn to spell things out clearly to others, like her husband has pointed out, instead of assuming that the other party already knows what she thinks; that she did not take our younger daughter's complaints serious enough, among others. She even became emotional, on the verge of crying, while stating those things.

In the end, a solution was worked out with the teacher; The big issue for me however was that I heard that my earlier statements actually got through to her; she just never acknowledged that to me directly.

In that sense, my words do have an effect; she just tries to hide it at all costs to not "lose face", as she calls it. Kind of winning the current battle no matter what, like a desperate child.

And just that every difference of opinion is seen as a battle; again, like a desperate child.

I also get the feeling that her fog is actually becoming paper-thin. If you just to stick to your opinion calmly and bring it in a clear and non-accusational way, it does get through, no matter how much she invalidates it.

So, there you have it. There's hope after all...



Jack

I think it's the WHAT... not the WHY they defend so violently because they don't know the why or are afraid to confront the why?

The WHAT being the act (your actions) that triggers the rage, AND the rage itself because to them at a foundational level, it's justified and is an instinctive reaction. Their protecting themselves, pure and simple, fight flight or freeze.

The WHY is the underlying fear that causes the emotional defence to kick in. It's the root trauma and that's locked away in their minds but the emotional response isn't. All trauma is both conditional and personal and may be a small as an overheard word - but it's real emotional trauma to them.

All they know is what just happened with you,(us) caused an instinctive fear response (not connected to us or now) - but because it's a emotional fear (devoid of logic as as are all fear responses) - she hits the fight flight or freeze button even though it really not necessary.

They,(you and I) only see /feel the act; the action (because actions speak louder than words and even louder than emotions) we respond to the ACT not the emotion and that's normal since we are now defending ourselves from the unjustified act not their emotions. It's bloody hard not to.

The escalation, the threats, is her fear ramping up in them to the point of almost insanity and THAT is where PDIs get scary and the point where you have to step back, NOT antagonise but agree because she IS justified in her actions to defend herself emotionally - this is not small chips. To her - she's bloody frightened, (child like - NOT childish) -

You're arguing the what... she's defending the why - she just doesn't know the why or is too frightened to think about it. How far would you go to defend yourself?

They are defending themselves to the death if necessary - a relationship is small change in that fight - it's truly (in their view) fight flight or freeze for emotional survival.

Don't over think it. No way can anyone understand mental illness unless you yourself are mentally ill...... end of line

Ahhh....the dangers of an open forum. The reason this forum is dwindling is the tendency to attack the person rather than attacking the argument. Open forums work on the dialectic method of Socrates.....funny ....the one method that seems to help borderlines and others is dialectic behavioural therapy.......but wait! Didn't they poison Socrates?

My experience with the mental health bunch was sad. Seemed more about "see ya next week and keep those checks coming in" than about my pain. Too much focus on not stigmatizing the crazy and examination of the bpd's feelings rather than my own.

Was a disappointment but I did learn a lot. It was not until I got around healthy men who had been through this stuff and recovered and men who had avoided being suckered in by a crazy woman that my situation improved....and improved drastically.

A good place to start is:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/

And some good reading for those stuck in a bad place....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200909/why-shrinks-have-problems

I believe the point mark was making is

" He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

Hi guys,

Following the side branch : as a rule of thumb, I don't waste energy on personal attacks; it's usually an indication that the opponent does not have sufficient factual arguments to make his point. In the end, it all comes down to what a person believes in, and that's always a very interpretable matter (depending on history/emotions/others).

Good point also in questioning yourself along the way. I have caught myself on the verge of pointing out that "no one in this world will support you like I do", "if not for me, you would already be lonely and sad", and others. The point being that I stick around where others would have already thrown the towel.

But it's getting close to "Without me, you would be nothing", a typical narc expression...

Bit my tongue just in time

Keeps your feet on the ground...


Sad to hear about your experiences with the pros, Chump. It's similar to all services : there are good ones out there, but you need to find them first.

Back on topic : I think I start to understand how my wife's brain works. It's all about emotional support for her; contrary to what she indicated at our marriage, she needs someone to lead her in life. Someone who is emotionally experienced and can easily take a 3rd person perspective. Someone who is not at the receiving end of her words, but at the analyzing end. Someone who will understand why she overreacts and corrects the situation by taking control instead of her. At the same time, because of her culture, she wants to look as if she's in control, but she often can not handle herself. She refuses to see and accept this: if she's frustrated, she needs a scapegoat, to hide the fact that she can not handle herself.
She's severely limited in her emotional understanding by her upbringing, which mainly focused on performance and competition.
She was brought up as a single child, being the new queen on the block; being served by adults of the entire extended family; confirming her in a role of power, but lacking the capacities to do so.

Until now, I've let her lead. As she has a "strong" character, and me being a co-dependent, it has worked for a while (~5 years). But now that she struggles with understanding life (her & my needs, children's needs, etc), she's at a loss on how to continue. As she refuses to educate herself on those topics, she gets more and more frustrated as time passes on.
And the way she releases that frustration, is by emotional abuse of others (me & children).

And that's how I got here...

I've learned a lot along the way, and have reached a point where I can safely say that I see through her fog. She's not a black box anymore, and it feels good to finally understand what's going on.

I've also learned that I need to take care of myself in the first place, before I can support anyone else; it's just the way we men operate.

And finally, I feel that my goal is within reach : leading my family into a bright future.


I owe a lot to this forum.


Thank you, guys.


Jack